The Hiding in Caves meme

[bill smith]

So what?
The important point here is not how the meme started, but who buys it. My assertion is that only truthers lapped up the meme happily, while debunkers mostly reject it.

Red, you are now the fourth truther with an opinion in this thread, and yet you too do not participate in the poll. I would like to know: In your mind, is "hiding in caves" part of the official story and believed by debunkers?

Perhaps Truthers don't really buy it it Oystein and never did. Maybe they are just using it as a device to make things uncomfortable for the perps and their people by drawing constant attention to it. After all it was vouched for and promoted in no uncertain terms by your own secretary of defence. It's a known known as Rumsfeld himself might say.

Hoist by your own petard forever.

 

[Oystein]

Perhaps Truthers don't really buy it it Oystein and never did. Maybe they are just using it as a device to make things uncomfortable for the perps and their people by drawing constant attention to it.

To which "it"?

After all it was vouched for and promoted in no uncertain terms by your own secretary of defence. t's a known known as Rumsfeld himself might say.

Hoist by your own petard forever.

My?



Bill, you don't get it. The "hiding in caves" meme is, as best as I can tell, never ever brought up by debunkers. It is always brought up by truthers.

Never mind if it originated with Rummy or whoever. We all know that Bush administration officials lied about a Saddam-AQ connection, lied about WMD, lied about AQ's motives, all to secure political gains from the momentum of post-9/11 backlash.

We debunkers, by and large, are however not easily fooled. Not by truthers, and not by Rummy. We see through your lies, and we see through his lies!

So the question to you truthers is not: Who told that lie originally? But: do you truthers think, today, that "hiding in caves" is part of the official story, as believed by debunkers? And the question to debunkers is: Do you believe in the "hiding in caves meme" today?


Because, you see, it seems that truthers like to claim ... like LittleGreyRabbit did in the OP to Richard Clarke and the CIA monitoring of 9/11 hijackers:

...most JREFers profess in the Arabs hiding in caves hypothesis...

He made that claim, he is a truther, and I am asking here and now: What do "most JREFers profess" in fact?

The answers so far are pretty lopsided: By far the most JREFers do NOT profess in any "Arabs hiding in caves hypothesis".



So what do YOU, Bill, the truther believe: Do most of those who profess in the official story think it was hatched in caves? Or do you think we do NOT believe this? I am awaiting your clear answer by participating in the poll.

 

[bill smith]

To which "it"?



My?



Bill, you don't get it. The "hiding in caves" meme is, as best as I can tell, never ever brought up by debunkers. It is always brought up by truthers.

Never mind if it originated with Rummy or whoever. We all know that Bush administration officials lied about a Saddam-AQ connection, lied about WMD, lied about AQ's motives, all to secure political gains from the momentum of post-9/11 backlash.

We debunkers, by and large, are however not easily fooled. Not by truthers, and not by Rummy. We see through your lies, and we see through his lies!

So the question to you truthers is not: Who told that lie originally? But: do you truthers think, today, that "hiding in caves" is part of the official story, as believed by debunkers? And the question to debunkers is: Do you believe in the "hiding in caves meme" today?


Because, you see, it seems that truthers like to claim ... like LittleGreyRabbit did in the OP to Richard Clarke and the CIA monitoring of 9/11 hijackers:


He made that claim, he is a truther, and I am asking here and now: What do "most JREFers profess" in fact?

The answers so far are pretty lopsided: By far the most JREFers do NOT profess in any "Arabs hiding in caves hypothesis".



So what do YOU, Bill, the truther believe: Do most of those who profess in the official story think it was hatched in caves? Or do you think we do NOT believe this? I am awaiting your clear answer by participating in the poll.

It doesn't really matter whether you debunkers believe that Al-Quaeda lived in caves or not. Your leaders do in absolute black and white and are stuck with that forever. Documented fact,signed,sealed and delivered.

So the Truth movement will continue to use it as a stick to beat your backs with for the forseeable future as it works very well to draw public attention to 9/11. A device if you like, but one of your own making.

You will have to add another option to the poll for me to vote .To wit :-

"Í do not believe the official story of 9/11 and believe that Al_Quaeda is a construct of the American Government''

 

[Animal]

It doesn't really matter whether you debunkers believe that Al-Quaeda lived in caves or not. Your leaders do in absolute black and white and are stuck with that forever. Documented fact,signed, sealed and delivered.

So the Truth movement will continue to use it as a stick to beat your backs with for the forseeable future as it works very well to draw public attention to 9/11. A device if you like, but one of your own making.

You will have to add another option to the poll for me to vote .To wit :-

"Í do not believe the official story of 9/11 and believe that Al_Quaeda is a construct of the American Government''

Yeah it draws attention to 911.....it shows how willfully ignorant troofers are.

 

[DGM]

. Your leaders do in absolute black and white and are stuck with that forever. Documented fact,signed, sealed and delivered.

I'm reasonably sure my "leaders" have moved on. In fact I think if you were to ask they'd wonder WTF you were talking about.

 

[bill smith]

Yeah it draws attention to 911.....it shows how willfully ignorant troofers are.

Example: 'Do you really think that a Bunch of ragged Arabs living in a cave could have orchestrated 9/11' It's quite powerful and of course it's your own Secretary of Defence who who backs it up. Good man Don.

 

[DGM]

Example: 'Do you really think that a Bunch of ragged Arabs living in a cave could have orchestrated 9/11' It's quite powerful and of course it's your own Secretary of Defence who who backs it up. Good man Don.

Wait, Where did anyone besides a "truther" say this?

 

[Animal]

Wait, Where did anyone besides a "truther" say this?

No one believes it besides the small cabal of troofers. Once again troofers have an oversized sense of their own self importance.

 

[DGM]

No one believes it besides the small cabal of troofers. Once again troofers have an oversized sense of their own self importance.

They also show selective memory. Rumsfeld described a rather sophisticated set-up, not some primitive caveman conditions, that was the "truthers" doing.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

I think that most JREFer's don't really care about whether or not they were hiding in caves. I personally think that doing so was a wise strategic retreat (from an armchair general type point of view), I also don't think that it would've prevented them from doing what they did even if they did 100% of the planning from there (which I highly doubt was the case).

It's well known that Bin Laden specifically and Al Queda in general liked to use modern technology to their advantage. Satellite TV and cell phones meant that they could be connected to anywhere in the world in minutes if they needed to be. CDroms, laptops and thumb drives ensured that he could get his orders out via messenger (probably the most secure method available) provided that they weren't time sensitive.

All of that aside there's no evidence that the details of the plan were put together in caves, if anything the evidence points towards the bulk of the ground work being done in Germany and a few locations in the USA. At most it appears that Bin Laden approved the overall idea of hijacking and crashing planes into specific targets and provided or facilitated funding and other logistical assistance for that plan and left the details for his trusted lieutenants to work out. Once that was done he probably gave the final approval and set the date. None of this required a fancy location or a complicated system of communications.

All of this ties into why I think that when truthers drag out the whole living in caves bit is racist. They are trying to imply that they were too dumb to even get out of living in caves so by extension they were too dumb to have figured out how to do what they did when they say "A bunch of Arabs living in caves". Being an Arab or any other race for that matter has no bearing on what they were capable of. If they had simply said a bunch of Men living in caves then there would be no racism implied (they would still be wrong in their assessment of what determined people can do with limited resources however).

 

[BStrong]

The hiding in caves came later.

 

[bill smith]

Watch the hunt for the Mythical Al-Quaeda and the searching of Afghani caves in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTTgpsAs4_c&feature=related

 

[BStrong]

Watch the hunt for the Mythical Al-Quaeda and the searching of Afghani caves in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTTgpsAs4_c&feature=related

Well that settles it then, I'll notify Ft. Bragg.

 

[Oystein]

It doesn't really matter whether you debunkers believe that Al-Quaeda lived in caves or not. Your leaders ...

My leaders? Has Rummy ever been my leader? Is he anybody's leader now? What are you talking about?

You will have to add another option to the poll for me to vote .To wit :-

"Í do not believe the official story of 9/11 and believe that Al_Quaeda is a construct of the American Government''

This would be an option for another poll.
If you believe that Rummy is my/our leader, and if you believe I/we follow him, then clearly your option in this poll is "truther, and think the caves meme is part of official story".
So Bill, why don't you just tick the option that you are arguing for here? What stops you?

 

[Oystein]

Example: 'Do you really think that a Bunch of ragged Arabs living in a cave could have orchestrated 9/11' It's quite powerful

Is a powerfully stupid strawman

and of course it's your own Secretary of Defence who who backs it up. Good man Don.

Care to enlighten us who is Secretary of Defense?
Care to enlighten us whose SoD you are talking about? Mine?

 

[bill smith]

Is a powerfully stupid strawman



Care to enlighten us who is Secretary of Defense?
Care to enlighten us whose SoD you are talking about? Mine?

I forgot that you are not a Yank. Interestingly though. your own minister of Defence in Germany is a well known Truther.

So I reluctantly ticked an option just to keep you happy. All rights reserved.

 

[Oystein]

I forgot that you are not a Yank. Interestingly though. your own minister of Defence in Germany is a well known Truther.

Okay. His name, and uhm any evidence that he is a truther

So I reluctantly ticked an option just to keep you happy. All rights reserved.

Did it hurt?

 

[bill smith]

Okay. His name, and uhm any evidence that he is a truther



Did it hurt?

Graf Von Bulow...something like that.I'm sure it's on the net somewhere.

 

[Oystein]

I forgot that you are not a Yank. Interestingly though. your own minister of Defence in Germany is a well known Truther

Graf Von Bulow...something like that.I'm sure it's on the net somewhere.

Andreas von Bülow "served as state-secretary in the German Federal Ministry of Defence (1976-1980) and Minister for Research and Technology (1980-1982)" (Wikipedia). He has been out of politics since 1994.

So you are entirely wrong: He never was "minister of Defence", and his stint as state secretary ended 31 years ago - your implication that he is at the minitry of defense now was untrue by several decades.

Pretty much on par for truthers, if I may remark.

During the past 35 years, several hundred persons have been minister or state secretary in the various German governments. Exactly one of these is a truther.
Pretty much on par with architects&engineers. Trutherdom is the isolated fringe.

 

[bill smith]

Andreas von Bülow "served as state-secretary in the German Federal Ministry of Defence (1976-1980) and Minister for Research and Technology (1980-1982)" (Wikipedia). He has been out of politics since 1994.

So you are entirely wrong: He never was "minister of Defence", and his stint as state secretary ended 31 years ago - your implication that he is at the minitry of defense now was untrue by several decades.

Pretty much on par for truthers, if I may remark.

During the past 35 years, several hundred persons have been minister or state secretary in the various German governments. Exactly one of these is a truther.
Pretty much on par with architects&engineers. Trutherdom is the isolated fringe.

Any interesting statements he made on 9/11 Oystein ?