The Heiwa Challenge

[dafydd]

Haven't you heard Bill the entire scientific community now thinks this way, every scientist and engineer thinks that by dropping one tenth of a nail on the other 9/10 it will suddenly get crushed.

Everybody knows that if you drop one lemon on top of nine other lemons the other nine will suddenly get crushed, everybody knows that if you drop one pizza box on top of nine other pizza boxes they will all get crushed. It is now scientific fact and everybody thinks like this.

Who do you think you are BIll ? What planet do you and you crackpot hero live one? Who do you think you are to tell anybody what they believe?

" Well DUH them OCTist think that 1/10 of something can crush the other 9/10ths of something well DUH, lets pretend that everybody on the planet is this stupid and I am really smart, DUH". Stop for god sake Bill.

Let me spell this out to you for the billionth time.

NOBODY THINKS THAT 1/10th OF WTC1 CRUSHED THE OTHER 9/10ths.

Is that simple enough Bill ?

Still not simple enough for our Laurel and Hardy.Try using words of one syllable.Come to think of it,this thread is not so funny after all,we are talking about a lot of dead people.Bill and Heiwa should be ashamed of themselves.As for the challenge Heiwa,has it sunk in yet that nobody gives a flying one about it? I notice that they avoided answering my question about how the explosives were placed and wired up without a soul noticing.No surprise there,they are past masters at avoiding the awkward questions.

 

[bill smith]

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NOBODY THINKS THAT 1/10th OF WTC1 CRUSHED THE OTHER 9/10ths.

Is that simple enough Bill ?

So how would you say it collapsed ?

 

[stateofgrace]

So how would you say it collapsed ?

No Bill this is not how it works, I take it your hero told you to ask this, right?

Ask him why he thinks everybody believes WTC 1 was one way crushed. This is his challenge is it not, the one way crush.

Did it one way crush Bill? Did 1/10th of the building completely one way crush the other 9/10ths? Yes or no?
Did the core get crushed, the external perimeters get one way crushed?yes or no ?

 

[bill smith]

No Bill this is not how it works, I take it your hero told you to ask this, right?

Ask him why he thinks everybody believes WTC 1 was one way crushed. This is his challenge is it not, the one way crush.

Did it one way crush Bill? Did 1/10th of the building completely one way crush the other 9/10ths? Yes or no?

He says No way-no how.

 

[stateofgrace]

He says No way-no how.

Well message boy give him my three word reply.

Welcome to ignore.

Goodbye to you too Bill, You have demonstrated your inability to think for yourself and be rational, I wish you and your hero a long and blissfully ignorant career together.

 

[bill smith]

Well message boy give him my three word reply.

Welcome to ignore.

Goodbye to you too Bill, sad utterly sad.

I bet that you will ignore Heiwa.I will watch to see if you make a mistake that shows he is not on your ignore list. (not that you will see this post of course)

 

[Newtons Bit]

Bill - They don't typically use rebar to reinforce concrete floors in commercial office buildings.

Yup, we use welded wire fabric these days. It's usually something like 9 gauge wires in a 16"x16" or so grid. You typically don't want to use rebar @ 12" o.c. as the construction workers are forever stepping on them and knocking them off their stands.

 

[tfk]

Yup, we use welded wire fabric these days. It's usually something like 9 gauge wires in a 16"x16" or so grid. You typically don't want to use rebar @ 12" o.c. as the construction workers are forever stepping on them and knocking them off their stands.

Do you know what they used in the towers? I remember seeing some images of the floor pours, in which there was some sort of reinforcement.

 

[bill smith]

Yup, we use welded wire fabric these days. It's usually something like 9 gauge wires in a 16"x16" or so grid. You typically don't want to use rebar @ 12" o.c. as the construction workers are forever stepping on them and knocking them off their stands.

Would they not need to use something stiffer than wire for such large spans that will be suspended. Otherwise he forces on the supporting trusses would be a lot higher surely ?

 

[Justin39640]

Do you know what they used in the towers? I remember seeing some images of the floor pours, in which there was some sort of reinforcement.

it was rebar tied together in grids
theres video of workers installing it

 

[Newtons Bit]

Would they not need to use something stiffer than wire for such large spans that will be suspended. Otherwise he forces on the supporting trusses would be a lot higher surely ?

Err, WHAT?!?

The spans are TINY. I regularly use 3" composite deck that spans ten feet. The deck in the WTC spanned what, 3'-0"?

The deck bears on the trusses, it is not suspended from the trusses.

The reaction from the deck to the truss is the same regardless of rebar as the deck itself carries the entire weight of the concrete. And even if it was suspended, the rebar wouldn't change how the load is delivered to the trusses.

Do you ever get anything right?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

The cause they cling to so desperately is wrong. It's dumb, irrational, and obviously wrong. What agenda is conceivably advanced by making fools of themselves?

A few obvious possibilities come to mind:

1) ego

2) rage against the machine, man!

3) armchair anarchy

4) puerile amusement at playing a tune and watching others dance

There are those who choose to contribute to society*, which takes some real, long-term effort, and those who by their lazy, immature nature can't be bothered**, and loll around complaining, whining, and finding fault, which of course requires no work at all.



*For instance, workers who labor for days on end to erect a skyscraper.
**For instance, those who choose to destroy the work of others with little more than a token effort.

 

[BigAl]

Would they not need to use something stiffer than wire for such large spans that will be suspended. Otherwise he forces on the supporting trusses would be a lot higher surely ?

Bill, Bill, Bill. You are a font of false conjecture.

It wasn't "large spans". The congregated steel was structurally supported every few feet. Someone else probably knows real dimensions, but I guess every 4 ft. The congregated steel is very stiff and strong.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wtc_floor_truss_system.png​

The wire isn't load-bearing. It's there to keep any cracks in the slab from propagating.

 

[Newtons Bit]

The wire isn't load-bearing. It's there to keep any cracks in the slab from propagating.

This isn't exactly common knowledge, but putting rebar into a 4" slab will actually CAUSE small cracks. The rebar is there to hold the concrete together once cracks are spread throughout the whole system.

 

[A W Smith]

it was rebar tied together in grids
theres video of workers installing it

I will have to review the film "the building of the world trade towers"
what they could have been tying together is pencil rod. Most WWF that iv'e seen is six by six. In both mats and rolls (and damn them full rolls are heavy)


(off topic)

funny story. Ive mostly bought half rolls of WWF for jobs that Ive done. they are pretty much manageable as one guy can pick them up. One day I told my ex business partner to meet me at the job site but to stop at a masonry supply yard and pick up a roll of wire fabric. Now Steve is a big guy. 6-3 240 from the UK originally a bodybuilder as a hobby (the ladies love his Birmingham accent) so he calls me up from the yard telling me hes having difficulty loading the welded wire fabric. "Its so bloody heavy its untrue!?" he would say . I'm thinking to myself WTF? Steve what the hells wrong with you? I can carry a roll by myself no problem! Well he manages to get to the job and I see this giant roll of wwf on his truck. Took both of us to get it over to the slab. Didn't even occur to me that I had been buying half rolls all these years.

 

[Newtons Bit]

I will have to review the film "the building of the world trade towers"
what they could have been tying together is pencil rod. Most WWF that iv'e seen is six by six. In both mats and rolls (and damn them full rolls are heavy)


(off topic)

funny story. Ive mostly bought half rolls of WWF for jobs that Ive done. they are pretty much manageable as one guy can pick them up. One day I told my ex business partner to meet me at the job site but to stop at a masonry supply yard and pick up a roll of wire fabric. Now Steve is a big guy. 6-3 240 from the UK originally a bodybuilder as a hobby (the ladies love his Birmingham accent) so he calls me up from the yard telling me hes having difficulty loading the welded wire fabric. "Its so bloody heavy its untrue!?" he would say . I'm thinking to myself WTF? Steve what the hells wrong with you? I can carry a roll by myself no problem! Well he manages to get to the job and I see this giant roll of wwf on his truck. Took both of us to get it over to the slab. Didn't even occur to me that I had been buying half rolls all these years.

As I recall, the floor slab did have #4 bars at 12" o.c. I'm not even sure if welded wire fabric existed back in the '60's. But I digress, I got everyone off topic by saying that, "Yup, we use welded wire fabric these days." Not trying to imply that they used WWF back then, but that it's a good solution used today.

 

[bill smith]

Err, WHAT?!?

The spans are TINY. I regularly use 3" composite deck that spans ten feet. The deck in the WTC spanned what, 3'-0"?

The deck bears on the trusses, it is not suspended from the trusses.

The reaction from the deck to the truss is the same regardless of rebar as the deck itself carries the entire weight of the concrete. And even if it was suspended, the rebar wouldn't change how the load is delivered to the trusses.

Do you ever get anything right?

A truss every few feet ? These Towers just keep getting stronger. I only thouht the floors might need the nebar to reduce flexibility in the concrete plates and stop cracking. What WAS he entire weight of concrete on each floor ? I have heard 1150 tons and I have heard 650 tons.

PS it sounds like it was rebar from the other posts. Any idea where it went ? The whole 110 acres ?

 

[tfk]

As I recall, the floor slab did have #4 bars at 12" o.c. I'm not even sure if welded wire fabric existed back in the '60's. But I digress, I got everyone off topic by saying that, "Yup, we use welded wire fabric these days." Not trying to imply that they used WWF back then, but that it's a good solution used today.

But, out of these comments comes info. Such as your comment above about cracking in reinforced concrete.

Which, I would expect, means that the energy for gross "comminuation" is quite a variable. Which impacts a bunch of those energy estimates. It means you have to look at the raw data to see under what conditions they came up with their numbers. (I would confidently wager a 6-pack that no controlled test set their samples aside for 40 years...)

BTW, you didn't really get anyone off topic, Newt. The topic is supposed to be "Heiwa's Challenge". But since he won't answer any questions, there's no conversation there.

tom

 

[Newtons Bit]

A truss every feet ? These Towers just keep getting stronger. I only thouht the flors might need the nebar to reduce flexibility in the concrete plates and stop cracking. What WAS he entire weight of concrete on each floor ? I have heard 1150 tons and I have heard 650 tons.

PS it sounds like it was rebar from the other posts. Any idea where it went ? The whole 110 acres ?

You feel no embarrassment from getting everything wrong, do you?

 

[A W Smith]

Good grief B S. We went through all the trouble to explain the floor detail and you are still totally lost. Have you no shame?