The Green New Deal

Belz... said:
Are those the only two options? Stop climate change completely or do nothing?
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First, we can't stop climate change, the best we can do is alter it. Second, of course doing nothing isn't the only other option. But the "Green New Deal" is worse than doing nothing. That doesn't mean that there aren't any options better than doing nothing. That doesn't follow from anything I have said here or anywhere else.
 
We need to get past non renewables. Including Nuclear. We already have an energy resource we're confident of lasting for billions of years--the Sun. It provides just about 1kW/m^2. And before the Moon sails too far in its expanding orbit, tidal energy from the movement of currents (as well as wave energy) in a medium of density 1t/m^3 is considerable. Even the motion of air, 1/1,000 the density of water, is a viable source to tap. And we already have the technology to tap these; simply expand and create more jobs in these fields.

As to the cessation of air travel. Intercontinental at least will be necessary for some time. And perhaps coast-to-coast. But high speed rail should be seriously looked at between at least major hubs within and among adjacent states.

We really have become spoiled by the high energy yield, low cost to obtain fossil fuels. The increasing cost to get at the dwindling stuff left, and its utility for more than just burning, demands that we get serious in transitioning.

As for pie-in-the-sky. Recall Kennedy's 1961 challenge to put men on the Moon before the end of that decade. The first little liquid-fueled rocket was lit only 32 years earlier! Suitably motivated, a nation can work seeming miracles. I only hope the motivator won't come down to actual, looming extinction.
 
Mike! said:
I think the key thing would be to convert aircraft to run on cow flatulence. There's a whole new industry just waiting to be created, the capture, containment, and transportation of Bovine Generated Aviation Propellent. Who says you can't kill one bird with two stones?
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dudalb said:
Bring back zeppilins!
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smartcooky said:
NOT a stupid idea, and smaller ones can be powered with electric engines too

The problem there, however, is that helium is not an abundant gas, and hydrogen is, well, not a good idea because Hindenburg/R101
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I think the return of the grand airship is well past it's due. Okay, here's a question, are cow farts lighter than air? Granted, you'll still have the potential for another explosive disaster, but I'm getting the impression cow pooties are abundantly plentiful.
 
Do belching cows produce a lot of methane? Yes. Is this good? No, not if we're concerned about greenhouse gas emissions. Also not good - methane release from melting permafrost.

High-speed rail? Bring it. Get rid of planes? Not happening. More efficient planes, fewer flights? Bring it.

Retrofitting every building? Bring it. But first, SMART GRID to accommodate distributed renewable installations all over our built environment. Vertical axis wind turbines and home solar (perhaps just enough to power a few major appliances like water heater, refrigerator) would be huge advance toward cutting down reliance on fossil fuels and create millions of manufacturing, retail, and service jobs.

NukesNukesNukesNukesandmoreNukes!

All kinds of other stuff, too: lawns, boo! xeriscaping, yay! leaf blowers, boo! rakes, yay!
 
Mike! said:
I think the return of the grand airship is well past it's due. Okay, here's a question, are cow farts lighter than air? Granted, you'll still have the potential for another explosive disaster, but I'm getting the impression cow pooties are abundantly plentiful.
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Cow Farts powering a Zeppelin?

Oh, the Humanity.....:D
 
Donal said:
Both. No one should be forced into labor just to survive. Society has enough resources to make sure everyone has the basics.

How about we rethink the concept of "work"? Instead of "work or die" we work to better ourselves and the world around us?
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Hate to tell you this, but the sixties are over....
 
Ziggurat said:
First, we can't stop climate change, the best we can do is alter it. Second, of course doing nothing isn't the only other option. But the "Green New Deal" is worse than doing nothing. That doesn't mean that there aren't any options better than doing nothing. That doesn't follow from anything I have said here or anywhere else.
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So you acknowledge that climate change is real and is caused by human activity?

Well Angels and ministers of grace defend us!
 
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dudalb said:
Retrofit every building in America??????????
Leaving cost aside is that even feasible?
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There's no reason why it shouldn't be feasible.

Insulation may be fitted to the inside or outside, if you can keep the capitalists out of it, you don't have to use the extra-burny kind.

I've retro-fitted my place with insulation in the ceiling, double glazed windows, exterior window shades, solar thermal hot water system, solar (photo-voltaic) panels to generate electricity.

Even with the 20 kWh I use each week to re-charge my car, I still end up with ridiculously low power bills. (Last quarter was $20, highest usage quarter in winter is $200).

Solar panels (PV and thermal) can be fitted to the outside walls of a building as well as the roof. I've seen buildings with solar panels as window shades/awnings.

You can even use solar technology (glass box basically) to heat the air in your home during winter. The box, outside on the wall facing the sun, heats up due to the greenhouse effect, and the air is circulated through your home. These seem pretty common in Nordic/Scandanavian countries.

Feasible, yeah.
 
CORed said:
I was going to point out that, though replacing air travel with high speed rail is at least somewhat plausible on land, it's not going to work too well for crossing oceans. The whole thing is really pie in the sky nonsense anyway.
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Well another thing is that both Boeing and Airbus are working with the likes of Rolls Royce and others to develop electric powered jet engines, which would make the entire argument moot. Airbus is hoping to have the world's first hybrid aircraft operational next year.
 
Drewbot said:
We could do this with clean nuclear power in 10-20 years.

Plus it doesn't take into account the possibility of fusion power being possible in 10-20 years.
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They have been saying that for the last 50-60 years!
 
The Shrike said:
Do belching cows produce a lot of methane? Yes. Is this good? No, not if we're concerned about greenhouse gas emissions. Also not good - methane release from melting permafrost.
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and even worse, from the frozen sea bed deposits, if they melt, we are cooked.

High-speed rail? Bring it. Get rid of planes? Not happening. More efficient planes, fewer flights? Bring it.
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Not just more efficient, but also new power systems. Rolls Royce is working hard on their E-Fan, and converting to a hybrid plane with a high efficiency engine powered on ethanol partnered with an E-Fan engine on each wing would result in a very environmentally friendly aircraft.
 
PhantomWolf said:
Well another thing is that both Boeing and Airbus are working with the likes of Rolls Royce and others to develop electric powered jet engines, which would make the entire argument moot. Airbus is hoping to have the world's first hybrid aircraft operational next year.
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There are already commercially available electrically powered light aircraft...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CS3isCH4bk

If we are to ever replace jet fuel powered airliners with electrically powered aircraft, we may have to settle for smaller aircraft with more flights.
 
Ziggurat said:
It won't accomplish much, and it will wreck our economy in the process.
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Just like the motor car destroyed the economy by putting all the blacksmiths, cart makers and farriers out of business.

Moving to a non-fossil fuel based economy just means retraining people to do the jobs that will be needed creating the new technologies that will run the new economy. In a lot of cases factories can be retooled and workers retrained very quickly because the new tech is very similar to the older, in other cases it might require a lot of retraining, but that's how the world works.

The energy industries such as BP, Exxon-Mobil, Shell, and others have been preparing to switch to more green tech for over a decade. Doing so won't hit them as hard as you might believe. Likewise car manufacturers have been moving towards EV's. Appliance manufacturers have been making more efficiency appliances. They have all seen the writing on the wall and have been preparing to change over, and any that haven't, well they kinda deserve to fall behind for not evolving their business model to survive with the times.
 
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