The Green New Deal

[Delvo]

I don't see why this should be a left-right issue... Climate is changing and we need to act.

Even if climate change was some natural phenomena unrelated to human activity, its still changing, and the rate at which it is changing will see the planet unlivable in a very short time!

even without climate change, it would still be good to shift away from fossil fuels, because the same natural resource is also where we get plastics and road tar, and we don't have any replacements ready for those when it runs out either.

I'd say the biggest problem with nuclear reactors is that we still don't know how to get rid of the waste.

The fact that it's radioactive is the key to the answer right there: it's emitting energy, the same thing that made the original nuclear fuel "fuel" in the first place. Reactors are just a way of speeding up the natural emission that was already happening. And the same thing can be done to the waste: use it as fuel for a different type of reactor, thus putting the practically free energy to use and sharply reducing the radioactivity of the waste. It's been proposed and the physics for it has been known for decades. It just hasn't gotten funded because people have been stupid about the word "nuclear".

Fine, fine, everyone have a laugh at it.

Now. If it's so bad, provide a better plan that will produce better results. Apart from Soylent Green and burning the poor to keep the rich warm, of course.

Start building more non-carbon-fuel power plants right now, including wind, solar, and fission, especially the waste-eating kind. Subsidize development of transportation methods that use electricity instead of gasoline/diesel, to set up a future time when gasoline/diesel can be banned. Pay for it the same way other countries with smaller economies already are paying for such things just fine: with a sane tax system that's designed to actually fund government functions instead of to funnel wealth toward those private citizens who already have the most of it... and with far less military spending so the money we have can be diverted to more practical uses. To that last point, either former military people who take budget-cutting discharge options can be hired to do the work on the domestic power system, or, if the military budget doesn't go down (or even quit growing), we can transfer people to the Corps Of Engineers from other military offices and have the COE do the work.

 

[Donal]

Not exactly thrilled with it myself.

Ya, it is far from perfect, but lets see if we can get past the personal incredulity some see to be relying on.

I think the "high speed rail to replace air travel" is just plain ridiculous

Not as ridiculous as it sounds. While we probably won't end air travel in our lite times, I don't think anyone here is opposed to upgrading our infrastructure and utilizing high speed rail. Remember, it typically takes more resources to travel by air than land. While current high speed rail won't make going from NY to LA cheaper or faster, connecting major cities to more outlying areas, or maybe former large cities, seems like a good idea to me.

When the idea of a high speed rail was pitched connecting Boston, NY, Philly and DC, I though that maybe connecting those cities instead to former manufacturing centers (ie the "rust belt") would be more productive.

The biggest hurdle is the fact that you have to deal with the various municipalities between pihts A and B.

And it's wrong,wrong,wrong on Nuclear Power.

Ya, I agree here. More investment in nuclear power.

And it's really vague about where the money for all this is going to come from.

Mexico will pay for it!

Just kidding. Taxes. Taxes are how government projects are paid for. Maybe we can take some of that money earmarked for no bid military contracts. Or the $50 billion a year in oil subsidies. Maybe we can roll back that $1.5 trillion welfare program for billionaires.

Maybe the income and revenue produced by these projects will also be able to fund them once the program is rolling.

A few more points:

1) everything is impossible until it isn't. A man would combust if he traveled past 35 mph. Radiation would kill you when you leave Earth's atmosphere.

2) look at the criticisms of the original New Deal. you'll see a lot oft he same ground tread.

3) Push this and we move the conversation past "is climate change real" and to "how do we address climate change". Even if most of the GDN doesn't come to fruition, it gets further than we are.

 

[Armitage72]

2) look at the criticisms of the original New Deal. you'll see a lot oft he same ground tread.

I still see people claim that the New Deal was a failure that extended and intensified the Great Depression, and if not for the economic effects of WWII, it would have destroyed the country.

 

[Donal]

Ya, I see people reporting Big Foot sightings. And they are taken just as seriously.

 

[The Big Dog]

Remember, it typically takes more resources to travel by air than land. .

Not necessarily accurate, and I have highlighted the resource in question.

 

[Ziggurat]

Really? This plan would result in coastal areas being flooded, food bowls turning into dust bowls, increase massive flooding, produce bigger and more powerful hurricanes and storms, destroy the coral reefs worldwide, devastate fish stocks, greatly increase the range of tropical diseases, and potentially spark the next great extinction?

You say that like this plan would actually stop climate change. It wouldn't. But it would create additional catastrophes of its own, which would economically cripple us and make us more vulnerable to those changes.

 

[theprestige]

Can we talk a little more about the "economic security for those who don't want to work" bit?

Because that sounds awesome. For me, anyway. I'm not sure how AOC plans to work hard enough to pay for the two of us, but it's her proposal so I'm sure she's figured something out.

 

[applecorped]

Free money!!!!!

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I think, absent some kind of global catastrophe, that countries are going to have to start moving towards the model of paying everybody a basic income and then having what they earn from jobs be on top of that. The world is becoming increasingly automated and the more jobs like teller, driver, and warehouse worker become obsolete, the more people are going to need a safety net.

That's probably a discussion for a different thread, though.

 

[Donal]

Can we talk a little more about the "economic security for those who don't want to work" bit?

It was passed in the middle of the night by the Republicans in late 2017. They are currently working on expanding it by eliminating the inheritance tax.

 

[Belz...]

You say that like this plan would actually stop climate change. It wouldn't.

Are those the only two options? Stop climate change completely or do nothing?

 

[Donal]

At least he admitted climate change is real and we can address it.

 

[theprestige]

I think, absent some kind of global catastrophe, that countries are going to have to start moving towards the model of paying everybody a basic income and then having what they earn from jobs be on top of that.

How would that work, though? The money for the basic income comes from tax revenue, which in turns comes off the top of what people earn from jobs. You start paying people whether they're working or not, you'll end up having to force at least some people to work quite a bit to produce all the surplus wealth you're spreading around.

 

[Donal]

That assumes people will simply not work. What is more likely is they will find other jobs than quick menial labor that can be replaced by machines. Maybe get more education so they can engage in higher levels of problem solving and artistry.

Maybe if a person isn't just trying to scratch out a living day to day, they get to truly live up to their potential.

 

[theprestige]

That assumes people will simply not work. What is more likely is they will find other jobs than quick menial labor that can be replaced by machines. Maybe get more education so they can engage in higher levels of problem solving and artistry.

Maybe if a person isn't just trying to scratch out a living day to day, they get to truly live up to their potential.

Pretty sure my potential is to go on long bike rides, drink beer with friends, and read a lot of books.

 

[Donal]

Is that really less productive than stocking shelves at WalMart?

 

[CORed]

You missed the hilarity of the farting cows!

Sen Mazie Hirono (D-HI) on Ocasio-Cortez’s Green New Deal & trying to cut down on air air travel. “That would be pretty hard for Hawaii”

When Crazy Mazie think your plan is crazy... well....

I was going to point out that, though replacing air travel with high speed rail is at least somewhat plausible on land, it's not going to work too well for crossing oceans. The whole thing is really pie in the sky nonsense anyway.

 

[Brainster]

That assumes people will simply not work. What is more likely is they will find other jobs than quick menial labor that can be replaced by machines. Maybe get more education so they can engage in higher levels of problem solving and artistry.

Learn to code?

 

[dudalb]

I was going to point out that, though replacing air travel with high speed rail is at least somewhat plausible on land, it's not going to work too well for crossing oceans. The whole thing is really pie in the sky nonsense anyway.

A lot of TGND is pie in the sky nonsense.
Look, I agree that we need to move on climate change, but it has to be thought out carefully. And a lot of TGND was not,frankly.
It also does not have the chance of a snowball in hell of getting enacted. I most democrats are going to shy away from some of it's more questionable proposols.
In the end, Bismarck was right. Politics is the art of the possible. And a lot of TGND is simply not possible.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

How would that work, though? The money for the basic income comes from tax revenue, which in turns comes off the top of what people earn from jobs. You start paying people whether they're working or not, you'll end up having to force at least some people to work quite a bit to produce all the surplus wealth you're spreading around.

As I said - this is probably a discussion for another thread.