The Gospel

Orangutango said:
That's a point that has bothered me for close to 18 years now.

Basically, any child (or individual) who has had the misfortune of being born and raised by parents in a community that does not believe in or has never even heard of Jesus (such as in those secluded tribes in the Amazon, for example) will be condemned to hell for all eternity should they die without accepting Christ as their Savior (according to Christian belief).

Still waiting to hear of the loophole to get out of this one....
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The Mormons came up with one but it didn't catch on in mainstream Christianity. In Mormonism there is a time after death before judgment that those who didn't hear of Christ will be given a chance.

Catholics have limbo whatever the hell that is.
 
According to Dante (yeah, my only source on Catholic doctrine is a long-dead poet), Limbo is where the virtuous pagans go. The ones who follow the four cardinal virtues, but do not have the knowledge of Christ.

I believe there was a thread somewhere where it was stated that the Catholic church has stated that Limbo doesn't exist. Feel free to make your own jokes about Limbo being in limbo.
 
Ossai said:
ceo_esq



kurious_kathy
Ok so you believe in Jr. What about Big Daddy?

This time it’s Big Daddy then Jr.

So is Jr. some sort of magical conduct through which Big Daddy sends you magical mojo? What of Spooky then? Where does he come into the equation? How often do you need a recharge of magic mojo or is it a one time deal?

If you’ve felt Big Daddy’s power through Jr. doesn’t that mean someone else didn’t? Even with Spooky lending a hand that would mean only two people at a time could have an influx of the magic mojo.

Ossai
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Hi Ossai, Well as soon as Jesus saves a person, the Devil can not touch him anymore. The power comes through Christ which connects us to God. God is Holy and can't even look at us until we receive Christ. God see's us through Jesus's Holiness. This is the very nature of what calling oneself redeemed by the Lord means. I can best describe it as freedom in Christ. It's as if God Himself tells Spooky...Hands off Satan, this ones mine!
 
Kopji said:
Hi Kathy
For just a moment my mind wanders...
I am taken back to a snowy evening a few years ago where I held a five year old little boy and had to explain that his father was dead. Climbed a tree and fell to his death during a drunk - completely senseless. And you know, phrases like "he's in a better place now" seem as empty now as they would have then. I'm glad I never uttered them. That would be such a regret...

...Or more recently a close friend of my daughter is struggling with bulimia. Sheesh what a self destructive illness that is, and nearly impossible to understand. There is the added pain of watching your own child deal with what might well be the death of a good friend. I am proud of her in a sad way - children grow and sometimes suddenly reach a moment where you realize they have grown up and are not a little girl anymore, and never could be again. Life is change, and that is as it should be.

And so many other times. Living can be terrible and yet have a kind of beauty to it too.

But back to the moment...

1: You're missing my point.
2: You are missing your own point.
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Hi Kopji... First I'd like to respond to these two statements here. It sounds like this man was a friend of yours and I would just like to offer my condolences for your loss, and the little 5 year old boys loss too! It's always a hard thing when death strikes. I don't think any of us are ever totally ready for it. But I can't help but want to ask you to think of this idea? If this was my friend who I new believed in Christ, I would at least have the hope of seeing him again in heaven! Does this make me religious because I have this belief? Or am I just choosing to believe in the promises?

And this other friend who's daughter struggles with an eating disorder, there is help for this disease. In my younger years I too dealt with being borderline anerexic which turned to compulsive overeating. Bulimia is what happens to people who don't want to get fat by their eating getting out of control. A good counselor should be able to help this girl build up her self esteem and help her deal with her feelings, AKA the inner child.
Emotional problems I believe have been linked heavily to most if not all cases of people who are struggeling with eating disorders. I had bought myself a book by a Christian woman years ago that really helped me get out of that kind of bondage. It's a battle that can be won. The name of the book was "Confessions of a Closet Eater." I just hope she is trying to get some help to get well. The Overeaters Anonymous meetings might be helpful for her too! I have only recently the past year or so read up on the 12 Step programs, but the principles are good to help people with all different types of addictive/ compulsive problems.

And as far as you trying to say I'm addicted to religion, well I must tell you I just don't see it that way. I am very interested in learning and identifying things in other religious teachings to see how other beliefs compare to my belief which is in the one and only Jesus Christ. There is no one like Him in any other religion. He breaks down the barriers in religion and unifies people in His love and forgiveness. To be reconciled with God is very important for each and every person alive! I know you think I'm preaching too much here when I say this but I can only share what I believe and know in my heart!
In Christ we are free men who become spiritually alive!
 
Orangutango said:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_capr.htm

About halfway down the page:

I wonder what the "cut off" time for infants is...
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Good question. I don't know. What about those born without the ability to know or understand? I guess many of the mentally retarded are going to hell or limbo. Nice God. Can you imagine a parent strugling to help his or her child in this world only to know that it will be torture for time and all eternity. It warms the cockles of my heart. I also like how many Christains condemn the Nazis for gassing innocent women and children. Now that is pretty evil, but let's be honest, each person only had to suffer that evil for a few moments. Our merciful God tortures the same for all eternity and somehow that is ok. Or at least our omnipotent God is powerless to do anything about it.

And tommy doesn’t know what day it is.
Doesn’t know who jesus was or what praying is.
How can he be saved?
From the eternal grave

--Christmas, from the soundtrack Tommy, lyrics by Pete Townshend.
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RandFan said:
Good question. I don't know. What about those born without the ability to know or understand? I guess many of the mentally retarded are going to hell or limbo. Nice God. Can you imagine a parent strugling to help his or her child in this world only to know that it will be torture for time and all eternity. It warms the cockles of my heart. I also like how many Christains condemn the Nazis for gassing innocent women and children. Now that is pretty evil, but let's be honest, each person only had to suffer that evil for a few moments. Our merciful God tortures the same for all eternity and somehow that is ok. Or at least our omnipotent God is powerless to do anything about it.
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I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Upon further reading from the link I posted earlier:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/limbo1.htm

A person suffering from autism, or others who suffer from an inability to communicate might not be able to engage in the Sacrament of Penance, regardless of their age.

A mentally disabled individual may also be able to engage in the Sacrament of Penance, or to understand the nature of sin -- again regardless of age.
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The key words being "may" and "might not". Makes me wonder what criteria one of these poor individuals who were born with one of these conditions needs to be met in order to be granted a "pass" by such a, ahem, loving and benevolent god.

But wait! It gets "better"....

A fertilized ovum, morula, zygote, embryo or fetus are all regarded by the Roman Catholic church to be a full human being. Thus they are all subject to that original sin that the entire human race inherited from Adam and Eve. If they were to die due to natural causes or an abortion, then they would die under a state of sin; they would not be eligible for acceptance into Heaven. On the other hand, they would not have had the opportunity or knowledge to commit an actual sin, so they would not seem to be eligible for Hell either.

A newborn who died before being baptized would be in the same situation.
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Kinda sucks for that poor zygote whose mother suffered a miscarriage.:rolleyes:

Isn't it also funny how after over 1500 years of pondering this very issue, the Roman Catholic Church still can't make up it's mind as to what the ultimate fate of unbaptized children/infants/embryos is... (I suppose god hasn't been available for comment)
 
Orangutango said:
The key words being "may" and "might not". Makes me wonder what criteria one of these poor individuals who were born with one of these conditions needs to be met in order to be granted a "pass" by such a, ahem, loving and benevolent god.
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Considering how many people have been thusly inflicted it is easy to imagine a scenario where there is this cut off point where .000001% would separate two individuals where one would enjoy eternal bliss and the other eternal torment.

Kinda sucks for that poor zygote whose mother suffered a miscarriage.:rolleyes:

Isn't it also funny how after over 1500 years of pondering this very issue, the Roman Catholic Church still can't make up it's mind as to what the ultimate fate of unbaptized children/infants/embryos is... (I suppose god hasn't been available for comment)
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Yeah, the Catholic church has been suffering fits ever since the *Logica vetu and the Aristotelian Corpus was translated in Latin. The Church increasingly came face to face with reason and the attempt to reconcile logic and faith. St. Aquinas made a valiant effort but sadly the irreconcilable is just that.

*If memory serves. I need a refresher course. Anyone recommend a good concise reference?
 
And once again, kathy ignores my question. Guess the whole question of the justice of eternal punishment is just too much for her li'l fundy brain to handle.
 
Rather than start a thread about it, I have to ask.....does Kathy believe in the same BS as Kent Hovind?
 
kurious_kathy said:
Hi Ossai, Well as soon as Jesus saves a person, the Devil can not touch him anymore. The power comes through Christ which connects us to God. God is Holy and can't even look at us until we receive Christ. God see's us through Jesus's Holiness. This is the very nature of what calling oneself redeemed by the Lord means. I can best describe it as freedom in Christ. It's as if God Himself tells Spooky...Hands off Satan, this ones mine!
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There is not one stinking fact in this post. You can't even use the bible to back this stuff up. You are just regurgitating what some preacher spewed out. God can't look at us until we receive Christ?????? I thought he could do anything. What's the deal????
 
ceo_esq
Neither of these two texts expressly indicates how much time elapsed between the last reported words and actual death.
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How about actually reading the texts. Both texts indicate that Jesus said “?” then died.

John 19:30
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

You are the one adding assumptions to the texts.

On the topic of assumptions, one of the more conspicuous assumptions you appear to be making regards the referent of John's phrase "gave up his spirit." You seem to take this to mean something along the lines of "died (instantly and wordlessly, in fact)". That is not an illogical or unreasonable interpretation, although it does, as I said, involve an extratextual assumption.
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Oh, then maybe it’s just an assumption that Jesus died since he only gave up his spirit after all it doesn’t explicitly state that he died.
You’re trying to play semantics here and coming off as dishonest.


kurious_kathy
Hi Ossai, Well as soon as Jesus saves a person, the Devil can not touch him anymore.
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So once saved always saved. Well heaven is covered, now to go party!

The power comes through Christ which connects us to God. God is Holy and can't even look at us until we receive Christ.
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Wouldn’t that mean when we die we could just wander on into heaven since Big Daddy couldn’t kick us out?

I can best describe it as freedom in Christ.
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So absolute obedience equals freedom? Not gonna fly.

It's as if God Himself tells Spooky...Hands off Satan, this ones mine!
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Spooky isn’t Satan. Although I can understand why Spooky would be jealous. I mean Satan get to go to all the really wild parties.

Since you didn’t recognize Spooky, I’m forced to wonder exactly how much Christian doctrine you actually know? It goes Big Daddy, Jr. and Spooky.

Ossai
 
Hi KK.

One day you are bound to wake up and all of this will seem like a dream, if not a nightmare.

Best Wishes,

M.
 
kurious_kathy said:
The 12 steps were given to the founder of AA based on scripture. The problem is they secularized it and started generalizing the term higher power and God to try to accomodate all people from all types of different religions or cultures. I can tell you I am very vocal with people if and when I may choose to go to a meeting. If we want the empowerment of God's power it is only found in Christ!
Even though I haven't totally worked the steps I find I do enjoy reading my Life Recovery Bible which applies the recovery principles to the other spiritual lessons in scripture.
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So nobody who doesn't believe in Jesus has ever recovered from addiction? What an interesting piece of truthiness!
 
kurious_kathy said:
Hi Kopji... First I'd like to respond to these two statements here. It sounds like this man was a friend of yours and I would just like to offer my condolences for your loss, and the little 5 year old boys loss too! It's always a hard thing when death strikes. I don't think any of us are ever totally ready for it. But I can't help but want to ask you to think of this idea?
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Hi Kathy,
I volunteered with an organization that did victim advocacy a few years ago. We worked in conjunction with the local police on things like death notifications or crisis intervention. I did not know the man, and the little boy was simply forgotten by others during the crisis. I stayed with him while others helped the mom. There is not much to say in times like that, it is a time of simply listening and 'being there'. My point is that I know pretty well the impacts of addiction and a lot of other things too.
If this was my friend who I new believed in Christ, I would at least have the hope of seeing him again in heaven! Does this make me religious because I have this belief? Or am I just choosing to believe in the promises?
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I don't even know what religion they were. Maybe he's in hell? Honestly, I am not really interested in hearing how you would tell his son or widow that he might be in hell.
And this other friend who's daughter struggles...
... buzzzzzz ...principles are good to help people with all different types of addictive/ compulsive problems.
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Thanks for your concern. Her inner child has been through six weeks of counseling, three hospital stays, a near death incident with low potassium, and she is now back in six more weeks of counseling since she went on a shoplifting spree to feed a binge / purge. It was go back for more or go to jail. You will be cheered to know that her family is fairly evangelical Christian and her counseling has been faith based.
And as far as you trying to say I'm addicted to religion, well I must tell you I just don't see it that way. I am very interested in learning and identifying things in other religious teachings to see how other beliefs compare to my belief which is in the one and only Jesus Christ. There is no one like Him in any other religion. He breaks down the barriers in religion and unifies people in His love and forgiveness. To be reconciled with God is very important for each and every person alive! I know you think I'm preaching too much here when I say this but I can only share what I believe and know in my heart! In Christ we are free men who become spiritually alive!
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The strongest prisons are those we build for ourselves.

I suppose that in a way I am reconciled with God by not believing in him. If he really existed he would want it that way rather than have me think he was represented by fools like Pat Robertson. THAT would be an honorable kind of God. (I know in my heart you are mistaken.) :D
 
Dr Adequate said:
Without looking it up, how much can you tell me about the teachings of Sikhism?
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I haven't heard that term Sikhism. But I will tell you that you guys on this forum have inspired me to read a book I came across in a Christian bookstore. The name of the book is called "Understanding Secular Religions" ever heard of it? Even though I am just getting done with the first chapter which I must say covers much detail on Atheists, Agnosticism, and Skepticism, I find it quite informative. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th chapters will cover Marxism, Secular Humanism, and Existentialism.

Somehow I get the impression I should have read this book before I started conversing with some of you to better understand what type of critical thinker I am up against.
Just remember this is a spiritual battle and God is the victor!
 
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