The Gospel

ned flandas said:
They mean quite a bit to non-Christians as they state that Jesus loves ALL people.
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From Deuteronomy 13:7-11

If your brother, the son of your father or your mother, or your son or your daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying "Let us go and serve other gods," unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the people surrounding you whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No you must kill him, you hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your god...."
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Any questions....?
 
Exodus 31:12-18,

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God."
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Explained in Romans 3:

20For no one can ever be made right in God's sight by doing what his law commands. For the more we know God's law, the clearer it becomes that we aren't obeying it. 21But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight--not by obeying the law but by the way promised in the Scriptures long ago. 22We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done.
23For all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious standard. 24Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins. 25For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us. God was being entirely fair and just when he did not punish those who sinned in former times. 26And he is entirely fair and just in this present time when he declares sinners to be right in his sight because they believe in Jesus.
 
ned flandas said:
Those laws were under the old covenant.

Christians are now under the new covenant.
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Oh, so there is an explantion why god decreed people should be put to death for breaking his precious laws before the birth of Christ? Is that explanation reasonable?
 
Really...

Well, try this one on for size...

Deuteronomy 13:1-

"Whatever I am now commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away."
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Hmmm... do we have a contradiction going on here...? From the bible...? Shocking.

So.... what you're saying is that your hellfire and brimstone god (god: version 1.0), who had a raging mad-on about smiting sinners, heretics and non-believers left and right in the old testiment, after his son pops onto the scene, suddenly suffers a crisis of consciousness and decides to become the happy-happy joy-joy god of the new testiment (god: version 1.5)?

Wow... it must have really sucked for humanity before good ol' jebbus showed up to show his pop the error of his ways...

Also, what Randfan said.
 
ned flandas said:
Those laws were under the old covenant.

Christians are now under the new covenant.
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Matthew 5:17-18

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
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So, according to Jesus, all the old laws still apply.
 
Orangutango said:
Really...
So.... what you're saying is that your hellfire and brimstone god (god: version 1.0), who had a raging mad-on about smiting sinners, heretics and non-believers left and right in the old testiment, after his son pops onto the scene, suddenly suffers a crisis of consciousness and decides to become the happy-happy joy-joy god of the new testiment (god: version 1.5)?

Wow... it must have really sucked for humanity before good ol' jebbus showed up to show his pop the error of his ways...

Also, what Randfan said.
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What happened is that up until the cross, the law was in place.

When Jesus was sacrificed, he took on the worlds sin. He also fulfilled the law for those who beleive in him.

So we are still obligated to it, but it is fulfilled in Christ. When God works in us then it is much easier to keep the laws that were set.
 
Freethinker said:
I guess the 10 commandments are out the window too?
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nope. they asked Jesus aboutt he greatest of the commandments and he said:

"Matthew 22:36-40

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love he Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
 
ned flandas said:
What happened is that up until the cross, the law was in place.

When Jesus was sacrificed, he took on the worlds sin. He also fulfilled the law for those who beleive in him.

So we are still obligated to it, but it is fulfilled in Christ. When God works in us then it is much easier to keep the laws that were set.
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But those laws are still set, right? And we should still try to fulfill them, even the ones that condone murder and slavery. Sure, Jesus picks up the bill if we fail to do so, but we should at least try to stone to death people who work on the Sabbath.
 
ned flandas said:
He fulfills the laws
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Excuse me? He said "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Bolding mine) Obviously from that statement all will not be fulfilled until heaven and earth pass.

Nice try, Neddy, but no sale.
 
Genesius said:
Excuse me? He said "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Bolding mine) Obviously from that statement all will not be fulfilled until heaven and earth pass.

Nice try, Neddy, but no sale.
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The Fulfillment of the Law

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
 
ned flandas said:
He fulfills the laws
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So we can do anything we want as long as we accept JC as our savior? Do Christians have to follow the old testament or not? Or do you just follow the parts you like and pretend like Leviticus and Deuteronomy never existed except when you want to condemn homosexuals?
 
ned flandas said:
What happened is that up until the cross, the law was in place.

When Jesus was sacrificed, he took on the worlds sin. He also fulfilled the law for those who beleive in him.

So we are still obligated to it, but it is fulfilled in Christ. When God works in us then it is much easier to keep the laws that were set.
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Again:

"Whatever I am now commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away."
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So, god didn't know what the hell he was talking about when he uttered this little gem...? He didn't have the forsight to realize that the above statement had an expiration date when he finally got around to sending his son to, in effect, sweep his dad's previous laws and commandments under the rug...?

It's still a contradiction, and a glaring one at that.

It's funny how all of these so-called devout Christians today willingly chose to either ignore or outright disobey those embarassing, little commandments that don't jive too well with our modern laws and ethics. Your religion has been making concession after concession over the past 2000 years or so... slowly, if not reluctantly, favoring man's laws over god's... because, well... let's face it: society kinda frowns upon the outright killing of those that do not follow your faith (see Deuteronomy 13:7-11 again).
 
ned flandas said:
The Fulfillment of the Law

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
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Yeah, I know that one. I quoted it to you.

Heaven and earth have not yet disappeared.

Everything is not accomplished.

Therefore the Law is not yet fulfilled.
 
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