The Gospel

Ladewig said:
If God really loved Job as a parent loves his children, then wouldn't he have told Job, "I'm not killing your children - it's just that they aren't happy here anymore so I am going to put them on a farm where they can run and play all day"?
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the only stipulation was that Satan was not harm Job physically
 
Absoulutley no concrete evidence for a god so therefore no god end of story
 
f God really loved Job as a parent loves his children, then wouldn't he have told Job, "I'm not killing your children - it's just that they aren't happy here anymore so I am going to put them on a farm where they can run and play all day"?
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ned flandas said:
the only stipulation was that Satan was not harm Job physically
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I was making a joke. In countries that generally don't handle death very well, a parent in the family that has a pet that is getting old and sick might lie to the children. Rather than tell the children that the pet will be euthanized, the parent lies and says that "it's just that the pet isn't happy here anymore so I am going to put it on a farm where it can run and play all day."

If God was "putting down" Job's children and God loved Job, then a lie might have been more appropriate.

I was serious about asking if fundamentalists believe Job's children are in Heaven or not.

David Swidler said:
Seriously, though, it's hard to make a real case that the whole story is anything but allegory: one thinker's approach to the problem of evil.
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Yes, I see your point, but that doesn't answer the question as to what fundamentalists believe.
 
David Swidler said:
Seriously, though, it's hard to make a real case that the whole story is anything but allegory: one thinker's approach to the problem of evil.
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Hi David, Its not really an approach to evil...

More a case of looking at where wealth, prosperity, suffering, poverty, loneliness, comfort, health, illness. These think affect us all and throughout Job he confronts them all.

The message is who do we turn to throughout all of these. Who do we run to? Note that his wife gave the worst advice (there's a great lesson there in itself ;) )

There are also Parallels with Job and Jesus, but I wont go into that cos your probably bored already
 
ned flandas said:
Hi David, Its not really an approach to evil...

More a case of looking at where wealth, prosperity, suffering, poverty, loneliness, comfort, health, illness. These think affect us all and throughout Job he confronts them all.

The message is who do we turn to throughout all of these. Who do we run to? Note that his wife gave the worst advice (there's a great lesson there in itself ;) )

There are also Parallels with Job and Jesus, but I wont go into that cos your probably bored already
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Based on this story, Job's god is NOT who I would turn to.
 
Hi, I'm the divine lord. I'm omnipotent, omniscient and I love my little creations. SO ... Hey, here's a guy. Let me have the guy I created to do the dirty work make his life miserable. Naw, not just miserable, dreadful. Let him suffer physically and emotionally. And then, as long as he keeps wheezing about how wonderful I am, I'll make the suffering stop!

Yep, I would want to take that person's advise and worship them.
 
Ultimatly, God restored what he originally had.

The most important thing to Job (his love for God) was not taken away at all throughout the ordeal.

I realise the story is bizarre and its natural to place a value on all the lives that were seemingly lost. But the general view (as someone asked earlier) is that those lives are eternal with God, so what is a few moments on this earth compared to a lifetime with God?
 
kurious_kathy said:
Choosing to live a life of faith is definately a road less traveled. But I just don't understand why peolple feel it's a threat to test their own beliefs against what the bible says? Nobody should feel it is being crammed down their throat...but why not test our own truths in light of scripture?
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Choosing to live a life of faith is a road traveled TOO often and too often for the wrong reasons. You can't deny that all the 9/11 hijackers had faith, you can't deny that all the suicide bombers that caused all the death and destruction in Iraq these past few days had plenty of faith. What this world needs is less faith and more cynicism.

Testing your beliefs is a double-edged sword, and you insinuate that more people should test their beliefs against the Bible, but have YOU done that yet?

For instance, if you came upon someone who practices Wicca - would you kill them? The Bible tells you you're supposed to.

Would you stone an unruly child to death? The Bible says that should be the fate of miscreant kids with no respect.

Are you ready to kill anyone working on the Sabbath (which presumably includes hospitals, police stations, military, etc.)? God says you're supposed to, in the Bible.

And just to show you how reliable the gospels are as far as accuracy goes, there is an article in the February issue of Time magazine's religion section (A Kiss for Judas) that mentions the finding of a previously unseen 31 page papyrus tractate. The Gospel of Judas has been uncovered for the first time in 1,500 years and promises to shed new light on Judas. Apparently he wasn't the heartless traitor portrayed in more conventional Biblical literature, but was apparently a close confidant of Jesus.

So, in light of new findings, I don't understand how anyone can believe the gospels 100%. They may be nice stories, but they don't mean much to anyone not Christian (nor are they any more offensive than say, the Iliad).
 
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Mephisto said:
For instance, if you came upon someone who practices Wicca - would you kill them? The Bible tells you you're supposed to.
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:confused:

Mephisto said:
Would you stone an unruly child to death? The Bible says that should be the fate of miscreant kids with no respect.

Are you ready to kill anyone working on the Sabbath (which presumably includes hospitals, police stations, military, etc.)? God says you're supposed to, in the Bible.
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You have been seriously mislead if that is what you beleive.
 
Mephisto said:
So, in light of new findings, I don't understand how anyone can believe the gospels 100%. They may be nice stories, but they don't mean much to anyone not Christian (nor are they any more offensive than say, the Iliad).
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They mean quite a bit to non-Christians as they state that Jesus loves ALL people.
 
Mephisto said:
Choosing to live a life of faith is a road traveled TOO often and too often for the wrong reasons. You can't deny that all the 9/11 hijackers had faith, you can't deny that all the suicide bombers that caused all the death and destruction in Iraq these past few days had plenty of faith. What this world needs is less faith and more cynicism.

Testing your beliefs is a double-edged sword, and you insinuate that more people should test their beliefs against the Bible, but have YOU done that yet?

For instance, if you came upon someone who practices Wicca - would you kill them? The Bible tells you you're supposed to.

Would you stone an unruly child to death? The Bible says that should be the fate of miscreant kids with no respect.

Are you ready to kill anyone working on the Sabbath (which presumably includes hospitals, police stations, military, etc.)? God says you're supposed to, in the Bible.

And just to show you how reliable the gospels are as far as accuracy goes, there is an article in the February issue of Time magazine's religion section that mentions the finding of a previously unseen 31 page papyrus tractate. The Gospel of Judas has been uncovered for the first time in 1,500 years and promises to shed new light on Judas. Apparently he wasn't the heartless traitor portrayed in more conventional Biblical literature, but was apparently a close confidant of Jesus.

So, in light of new findings, I don't understand how anyone can believe the gospels 100%. They may be nice stories, but they don't mean much to anyone not Christian (nor are they any more offensive than say, the Iliad).
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I swear... you must be my long, lost twin. I had those same, three examples (worded a little bit differently) ready to include in a rant I was saving for the right moment to post.

So... for my thoughts on the subject... what Mephisto said.

Jen

( I do have the exact passage from the bible where god commands that should even your dearest loved ones worship "other gods", that they must be killed outright, if anyone is interested in my posting it).
 
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ned flandas said:
:confused:

You have been seriously mislead if that is what you beleive.
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"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die." (Deut 21:18-21)

"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die." (Deut 17:2-5 )

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deut 13:6-10)
 
ned flandas said:
They mean quite a bit to non-Christians as they state that Jesus loves ALL people.
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That's only true if you believe that the Bible (in general) and the Gospels (in particular) are trustworthy. I suspect that Mephisto does not. Nor do I.

At least not any more than the Illiad is. Neat story, but not something I'm going to base my life on.
 
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