The Gospel

[Skeptical Greg]

I am really trying to ask objectively to others why they are offended by the Gospel?

Good.. You should have your answer by now..

You should have made this a polll..

So far, no one is offended by the gospel...


How do you feel about that ?

 

[Christian Dude]

Hi guys,

I meant to get back here Friday night, but I was too tiered when I got home from work. Then Saturday, I had for got that it was the day of Ozz Fest in my area. I hope you guys have fun doing other things than hanging around your computers all day. I wonder about that because many of you seem to post every day, all day. That is not good guys if it is true; that is not a life.

Ozz Fest was a blast. Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath were awesome! If I am going to get comments on how it is hypocritical for a Christian to attend a heavy metal concert, especially one with Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath, we will have to start a new thread about that. I can assure you though, it is not. Christians are to be light and salt to the earth, we are in the world but not of the world, which means we are to go to places and events non-Christians attend and participate in a way that does not compromise our Christian values. I did not smoke any dope or drink alcoholic beverages. I was an example of how you can have a great time with out doing any of those things. And yes, Maiden, Sabbath, and lots of other metal bands, have lyrics in their songs Christians disagree with and find to be immoral. If I ever get the chance, I would love to talk with those artists about that.

Since I am only one person, and the large number of posts that have come into this thread make it very time consuming to try to answer the ones directed at me, I have decided that I would answer some of, what I consider, the most pertinent questions and comments. If I don’t address your question or comment and you are honestly wanting to dialogue about it, look for a new thread that I will start, and we can continue on there. Otherwise this will most likely be my last post in this thread.

Welcome, Dude, to the forum.

Darwinian evolution is NOT about the origin of life. It deals with the question of how life on earth today came to manifest in the many forms that it does. Surely, some have explored how living matter can arise from non-living matter but as far as I know, school is still out on that subject, if for no other reason than "living" turns out to be pretty hard to precisely define.

So, since you cited "evolutionists idea of the origin of life" would you state what you mean by that phrase?


Do you consider "the wisdom in the Bible" to include the story of 42 children being killed because they teased a bald man. Or that it is wise to stone a child to death who disobeys his parents?

Please provide the evidence of the Lord that you reference.

I have often heard and read the need for an "open heart" in order to get Christianity and I just don't understand what it means. From context, it seems to mean to ignore logic, evidence and simple common sense. My heart is an organ that pumps blood through my body. Be specific on how I should "open" it.


Are you a biblical literalist? Is the bible inerrant in your view? If so, please explain, for example, how god made the sun stand still. If not, please explain how to tell the good stuff from the bad stuff.

You are, of course, welcome, to join in the discussion. Kathy needs some (a lot) help here. She is not good at answering questions and thinks merely citing verses from the bible provides an answer. Many of us here (not all) think the bible has as much veracity as "My Pet Goat" so react very poorly to quotes from it. Jump in and give a hand.

SezMe, I did state that I think a person’s view of the origin of life as the key belief that all other beliefs and values a person holds stem from. I now realize I should have not made this statement in this thread as it is off topic. We can talk about this issue and closely related issues in another thread since it could easily take up tons of pages alone.

The accounts you refer to are about the need to keep the nation of Israel pure and set apart, unpolluted by people that would introduce and procreate sin that would destroy the nation, until the nation of Israel’s population was large enough that the Lord would always have a remnant of genuine believers that would never fall away.

I apologize for using the term “open heart” in a context that many non-Christians might not be familiar with. When the Bible refers to a person’s heart, it is referring to a person’s essence, what they are about in total, what they pursue and desire. When, in my experience, most Christians use the term “open heart”, it means to be able to approach something in openness on an emotional and intellectual level. That is the sense I meant it.

It is obvious what my world view is. I do consider the Bible the infallible, inerrant, eternal and unchanging word of the one true God. I absolutely believe every passage of the Bible, no matter how harsh and unjust it might seem to a non-Christian, is filled with wisdom that we can learn to better our lives. There can not be any untrue or bad stuff in the bible or the Christian faith falls apart. There would be no way for us to tell what is a good part or a bad part if that was the case. It all has to be good and true or there is no reason to believe it. For example, 1 Corinthians 15:14 says - and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. The same holds true of all of scripture. That is why it is essential for a Christian to be able to give a clear, logical and reasonable account of their faith and the truth of scripture; and why the discussion on evolution and creation is so important to us.

Christian_Dude, What I here you saying is, "Pick Jesus, he doesn't make you work for it". This is something else that made me question this faith. Nothing else in life is that easy. Also, who says it is true. There are several religions that have longer histories, more thoughtful saints, and many of them say it must be accomplished over several life times of dedicated work. That sounds more plausible. It all comes down to which human’s baseless faith you are going to accept. You can say it is all from God’s book, but you must chose which human you are going to believe when choosing which book to follow, and how to interpret it.

MapMack, you have pointed out to me that my approach to defining the differences, and reasons Christianity should carefully be considered, is weak and too simple. Kathy had already posted the bible verse about why we can’t work for salvation so no one would be able to boast that they did more than another person. It isn’t about being the easiest way into Heaven compared to other religions so you should pick it. My thoughts are, of course the Lord would do it that way if we are all equal in his eyes and we also are all separated by our sin from him. No one can say “I am better than you because I did more to earn my salvation.” We are all of equal value to Jesus, no matter what the level of sin is in our lives. He also wants us to know we are going to Heaven and not worry if we have done enough to get there. This might not be a much better explanation, but it is the best I have right now.

We need a new smilie that means:

"The evidence you just gave for the veracity of some statement in the Bible is circular, because you quoted some other statement in the Bible to support it."

Really, if I had a nickel for every time someone supported their Christian claim with evidence outside the Bible, why, I'd not even have enough money for a pack of gum.

~~ Paul

Your right Paul, we have to use the Bible to present our arguments. You and I can talk about where science is at in this point in history, and can science prove or disprove the Christian Bible and faith. We can go on for years where I quote or refer to a scientist with a tremendous education and lots of Ph.D.s, then you respond back with the guys you like that are peers in the field we are discussing. Most likely, I will never persuade you that the guys I think are right, are right. Neither will you persuade me that the guys in your camp are right even though you have more guys in your camp. The guys in both our camps are intelligent thoughtful men and women with differing points of view. Just to dismiss either group with remarks that they are idiots is an emotional response, not a logical one. (I’m not saying you did that, but lots of people do on both sides.) With all the letters behind all these people’s names, they obviously are all very intelligent and well educated. Now the subject of wisdom is a very different thing.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t have the time for that. I have to spend time with my wife and family and make a living. I can jump in some conversations here and there, where I am welcome, and argue some of my points on these topics from time to time.

We are told in scripture that the word of God does not return void, and we believe it. The real issue for Christianity is sin. If sin is real, and sin condemns us to an eternity separated from God, then a person would be wise to investigate how to deal with sin. Now to relate using the Bible to present our arguments, the word not returning void, and sin.

Christians believe that since the existence of God is true, and God has reveled him self to us through scripture, and he has told us in scripture that he has built in the knowledge of his existence into everyone, the word of God will convict un-believers in spite of their denial that the Christian god is the one true God. That is why we always and must use scripture to present the truth of God. We believe deep down you know it is true and the word will convict you and cause you to make a choice. That choice is to reject God and his love demonstrated to you by Jesus’ death on the cross, or to choose to love him back and respond to his offer of salvation and a eternal life with him in Heaven.

Before I came to faith in Jesus, I believed in evolution. While in college, I majored in Astrophysics for a short time because of my interest in the universe and how it worked. A counselor convinced me that there was no job opportunity in that field and I moved into the computer science department. I thank that counselor from a career success and material gain point of view. I love science and have a tremendous interest in many areas if it. And after I came to faith, I had genuine questions on how science and Christianity could be worked out with out being in contradiction with each other. I asked the Lord to show me how it worked. Although he has not given me a large number specific scientific answers, he has given me enough to see that science does not have all the answers (foulsound’s prediction no. 5 coming true) and we have a lot of discovery left to make, and he has made it clear that the Bible is true and all will eventually see one day how the details were accomplished.

And yes, I can not see how there any more than two choices in the origin of life, random chance or creation. So, apparently to you Paul, I am a liar. I am OK with you and other people thinking I am. I know the Lord Jesus knows I am not, and he is the one I care most about what he thinks of me.

Well we've had "I'm a watch, I was designed" and "Just because we're in the minority doesn't make us wrong."

I am using my psychic powers to predict these arguments will follow:

1. We'll see a complete misrepresentation of the second law of thermodynamics.
2. We'll see the pointing to "gaps" in evolutionary science as proof it's wrong.
3. We'll see a lack of understanding of the word "theory" as used in a scientific seting.
4. We may see a few urban legends referring to banannas and Darwin recanting his findings on his deathbed.
5. We will see the misrepresentation that science thinks it has all the answers.
6. The complete ignoring of the scientific method of peer review and self correcting nature of science.
7. The reference to evolution or science as a "religion."
8. Refernce to the earth's age in terms of thousands of years, not billions when every shred of scientific evidence points to billions.
9. Possibly the argument that God made the universe to appear billions of years old as a test of faith.
10. Arguments about what statistics show in regards to the creation of life, and an effort to say it is statistically impossible not to have been designed.

What we won't see:

1. Actual research data done by ID "scientists" but we will see them poke at every one else's work.
2. ANY publication in peer reviewed journals, or any work done by ID "scientists" that is peer reviewed by mainstream science.
3. Any explanation why it is needed to inject metaphysics and unflasifiable ideas into science.
4. An argument from the ID side without a logical fallacy, or a misrepresentation of scientific study and evidence.



Edited to add:

Did I miss anything?

As you have explained to me that you have had the "Just because we're in the minority doesn't make us wrong" argument presented to you before in a similar discussion; it does not negate the validity of the statement.

1. I thought it was the first law of thermodynamics that I was using in my debates; energy conservation. If there are papers, journals or articles on this subject that prove my opinion wrong, I am open to reading them.
2. Transitional fossils anyone?
3. I understand the word theory.
4. Darwin did not recant his work, that is a foolish wives tale born out of an emotional response from Christians arguing in an area that did not have the knowledge to present a logical argument. Christians are people to, not perfect.
5. I didn’t know that we know everything already.
6. I don’t ignore that.
7. I do think that evolution is a religion in a way.
8. This is one area I am doing my homework in. I am very interested in radioactive dating techniques.
9. That is not a logical conclusion from what the Bible tells us about the nature of God. He would not deceive us.
10. That and more.

foulsound, Your right you won’t see what you have listed in your “What we won't see” section because my wife is telling me to get my butt off the computer and spend time with her and the kids. And the reasons I listed ealier in my comments to Paul. Sorry guys, I have to go and will come back and post from time to time if anyone likes my foolish comments and point of view.

Lastly, to comment directly to Kathy’s topic and question. The Gospel is an offense because it clearly states that there is only one single way to a life in Heaven for all eternity. That the only way to attain salvation is by confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus as the propitiation for your sins. Otherwise, you will go to Hell when you die. That is the offense.

-dude

 

[jan]

Actually, when you wrote "don't expect much from the gods," the book of Ecclesiastes came to mind. To a perhaps shocking extent, it would agree with the idea of not expecting too much from God.

Ah, Ecclesiastes. The only book of the Bible (besides Song of Songs perhaps) most atheists seem to like. Personally, I like chapter 9 of Ecclesiastes as much, perhaps even a bit better than Achilles' great speech in chapter 9 of the Iliad. And the Iliad was not just written by God, but, better, by Homer!

 

[pgwenthold]

[BIf you can not confess Jesus is Lord then I am sad that I won't see you on the other side of eternity. [/B]

Will you be sad to not see us when you are there?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Will you be sad to not see us when you are there?

That is definately true. Heaven is a big place, and God has room for everyone. Why would anyone not want to be there?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Good.. You should have your answer by now..

You should have made this a polll..

So far, no one is offended by the gospel...


How do you feel about that ?

I think that's awesome! I hope we might all meet in heaven some day too!! What do you think about that?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I think that's awesome! I hope we might all meet in heaven some day too!! What do you think about that?

What makes you think I want to meet you or anyone in heaven ?

I said we're not offended by the gospel, not that there is any truth to it...

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Well, Christain Dude sure shut us all down with his logic and reasoning...

 

[Atlas]

Well, Christain Dude sure shut us all down with his logic and reasoning...

Nevertheless, I appreciate his straightforwardness. He knows he's got to believe in the talking serpent, the angry, jealous God, the interpretations of "miracles" or his belief is full of holes.

It's troubling that an obviously intelligent fellow is so comfortable in that position. No problems at all.

 

[jjramsey]

8. This is one area I am doing my homework in. I am very interested in radioactive dating techniques.

Then you should read this:

Radiometric Dating: A Christian Perspective

PDF version of the same article: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/wiens2002.pdf

(Don't worry, guys. It's not YEC silliness. )

The Gospel is an offense because it clearly states that there is only one single way to a life in Heaven for all eternity. That the only way to attain salvation is by confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus as the propitiation for your sins. Otherwise, you will go to Hell when you die. That is the offense.

Ah, the gospel according to Jack Chick (and too many other Protestants). Jesus as "fire insurance." Two men of identical morality in front of a judge, and the only difference between them is that one believes XYZ. The judge condemns the one who did not believe XYZ to burn in a furnace, or something equally painful. If a human judge were to act this way, it would be called perverse, cruel and unusual. There is no fitting of the punishment to any crime. Yes, I can understand why this might be considered offensive.

An Eastern Orthodox Christian had a few words to say about this.

From The River of Fire, by Alexandre Kalomiros:

But why do men hate God? They hate Him not only because their deeds are dark while God is light, but also because they consider Him as a menace, as an imminent and eternal danger, as an adversary in court, as an opponent at law, as a public prosecutor and an eternal persecutor. To them, God is no more the almighty physician who came to save them from illness and death, but rather a cruel judge and a vengeful inquisitor.

You see, the devil managed to make men believe that God does not really love us, that He really only loves Himself, and that He accepts us only if we behave as He wants us to behave; that He hates us if we do not behave as He ordered us to behave, and is offended by our insubordination to such a degree that we must pay for it by eternal tortures, created by Him for that purpose.

Who can love a torturer? Even those who try hard to save themselves from the wrath of God cannot really love Him. They love only themselves, trying to escape God's vengeance and to achieve eternal bliss by managing to please this fearsome and extremely dangerous Creator.

-- snip --

What is the Western dogma of salvation? Did not God kill God in order to satisfy His pride, which the Westerners euphemistically call justice? And is it not by this infinite satisfaction that He deigns to accept the salvation of some of us?

What is salvation for Western theology? Is it not salvation from the wrath of God?

Do you see, then, that Western theology teaches that our real danger and our real enemy is our Creator and God? Salvation, for Westerners, is to be saved from the hands of God!

How can one love such a God? How can we have faith in someone we detest?

I don't agree with Kalomiros that atheism is really hatred of God, but his portrayal of Western Christianity's idea of salvation is on the mark.

 

[kurious_kathy]

What makes you think I want to meet you or anyone in heaven ?
I'm sorry you feel that way.

I said we're not offended by the gospel, not that there is any truth to it...

That's not Ok, but I'll leave you with this thought,"One day every knee will bow, every tongue confess, Jesus Christ is Lord!"

I just wish I could show you what he has done for me. You would never deny him! I know he lives and I am so greatful to be turned around from living in darkness. My pagan days are over. That's a good thing.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

I just wish I could show you what he has done for me.

So tell us. What was so horrible in your life, and how is it better now? Why do you ascribe the change to Jesus?

The problem here is most of us are pretty happy people all in all. Personally, I've got a family who loves me, wonderful friends, and an entire world to explore and learn about. And beer. I don't need a religion or a "relationship" with a 2000 year old corpse to feel complete. Just as it was at his birth, there's no room at this inn.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I just wish I could show you what he has done for me.

What's stopping you ?

 

[Antiquehunter]

Lastly, to comment directly to Kathy’s topic and question. The Gospel is an offense because it clearly states that there is only one single way to a life in Heaven for all eternity. That the only way to attain salvation is by confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus as the propitiation for your sins. Otherwise, you will go to Hell when you die. That is the offense.

-dude

Ummm... so the only person to post on this thread that they are offended by the gospel is... ChristianDude?

 

[triadboy]

Ummm... so the only person to post on this thread that they are offended by the gospel is... ChristianDude?

 

[triadboy]

Lastly, to comment directly to Kathy’s topic and question. The Gospel is an offense because it clearly states that there is only one single way to a life in Heaven for all eternity. That the only way to attain salvation is by confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus as the propitiation for your sins. Otherwise, you will go to Hell when you die. That is the offense.

Not if you don't believe it! You obviously don't care about Islam - but in the minds of fundamentalist muslims YOU are going to Hell, because you worship more than one god. Are you offended? Of course not.

It's hard to explain - but to an atheist (who doesn't believe in God, the Devil, Hell or Heaven) - the above quote is like threatening someone with bad Santa gifts. It means nothing.

 

[jan]

Ah, the gospel according to Jack Chick (and too many other Protestants). Jesus as "fire insurance." [...]

An Eastern Orthodox Christian had a few words to say about this.

There are more traditions that deny such an approach.

Eckhart compares a Christian who worships God because he wants to enter heaven with a farmer who "loves" a cow: it is not really love, but the expectation of a benefit (sorry, no English translation handy). A true Christian should love God without considering the outcome.

The Islamic mystic Attar even declares that if he worships God because he expects God to send him to heaven, God should condemn him to hell.

 

[jan]

Ozz Fest was a blast. Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath were awesome! If I am going to get comments on how it is hypocritical for a Christian to attend a heavy metal concert, especially one with Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath, we will have to start a new thread about that. I can assure you though, it is not. Christians are to be light and salt to the earth, we are in the world but not of the world, which means we are to go to places and events non-Christians attend and participate in a way that does not compromise our Christian values. I did not smoke any dope or drink alcoholic beverages. I was an example of how you can have a great time with out doing any of those things. And yes, Maiden, Sabbath, and lots of other metal bands, have lyrics in their songs Christians disagree with and find to be immoral. If I ever get the chance, I would love to talk with those artists about that.

Funny you mention it. I, for example, likes Haydn's "The Creation". Great music. And yes, Haydn got some of his cosmology completely wrong. I would love to talk with him about that. Unfortunately, I think it is unlikely we will ever meet, since he's dead.

 

[Dubium]

I absolutely believe every passage of the Bible, no matter how harsh and unjust it might seem to a non-Christian, is filled with wisdom that we can learn to better our lives. There can not be any untrue or bad stuff in the bible or the Christian faith falls apart.

Yup Christian Dude, you're right there.

As it is writ in Leviticus, if a man lies with a beast he shall be put to death and the beast shall be slain. I think there's something in that for all of us. God is obviously not a supporter of the prevention of cruelty to animals.

 

[Hawk one]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Christian Dude
. Transitional fossils anyone?

---

Claim CC 200, CC200.1 and CC201

[fquote]3. I understand the word theory.[/fquote]
Then you should understand that the Theory of Evolution is describing the fact of evolution, the same way other scientific theories are describing the facts of their respective fields..

[fquote]4. Darwin did not recant his work, that is a foolish wives tale born out of an emotional response from Christians arguing in an area that did not have the knowledge to present a logical argument. Christians are people to, not perfect.[/fquote]
You are too kind. At first, it's an emotional response, but it has been refuted for so many decades now, the only reason it sticks around is that creationists keep deliberately lying. At least you know it's a fairy tale, though.

[fquote]7. I do think that evolution is a religion in a way.[/fquote]
Claim CA 610, CA 611 and CA 612. Oh, and do you also think that gravity is a religion, by the way? Also, referring you to my previous post, where I linked you to a FAQ about God and evolution.

[fquote]9. That is not a logical conclusion from what the Bible tells us about the nature of God. He would not deceive us.[/fquote]
But if you keep sticking to a literal interpretation if Genesis, that's exactly the conclusion you'll get. I'll refer you to my previous post where I linked to an article about the original Sin, to show you another example of God's deceitfulness.

[fquote]10. That and more.[/fquote]
Before you bother, have a look at claim CB010