The Gospel

[Antiquehunter]

Christian Dude must be off at another lascivious rock festival listening to satanic music but abstaining from smoking or drinking. His absence from this board is conspicuous.

 

[Dubium]

He thinks we sit around all day posting on this board, Antique Hunter. He implied that he was only allowed a certain amount of time on the computer each day because there was so much quality time to be had with partner and family. And there are prayers to say, non-believers to convert; theories of evolution to scoff at. Christians are such busy people - unlike we godless heathens.

 

[Antiquehunter]

He thinks we sit around all day posting on this board, Antique Hunter. He implied that he was only allowed a certain amount of time on the computer each day because there was so much quality time to be had with partner and family. And there are prayers to say, non-believers to convert; theories of evolution to scoff at. Christians are such busy people - unlike we godless heathens.

Perhaps godless heathens are just better multitaskers.

 

[Christian Dude]

Seriously, some people seem to be on the forum all day. If you make a post, four more come back at you right away. If you make a reply, again a bunch come back at you. I could do this all day and always get responses from the same people as well. It blows me away that some people have the time for that.

 

[Kimpatsu]

Seriously, some people seem to be on the forum all day. If you make a post, four more come back at you right away. If you make a reply, again a bunch come back at you. I could do this all day and always get responses from the same people as well. It blows me away that some people have the time for that.

As indicated, we're better multitaskers.
Of course, it helps that we don't waste any time trying to invoke the Juju...

 

[Ossai]

kurious_Kathy

Everything outside of Christ leads to death. Why do worldly people struggle with this fact? Not fiction or myth...He's alive!

Really, can we meet him in person. Maybe hearing it directly from his lips would convince a few people.

And who are you to juge, that's God's job not ours.

You’re advocating the abolishment of the legal system, after all, god’s the only one worthy to judge. Do you even know what you are posting?

Many people who think they are evolved say Christ is just a great teacher, not who he really is. What do you think?

IMO Jesus is an amalgamation of a number of teachers and saviors that were around at that time. Their stories got mixed together and edited by each ‘Christian sect’ until the council took control. BTW they voted on what should be included.

Jesus said that unless you change and become like a child you will never enter His kingdom. I believe every word that came out of his mouth. Simple childlike faith!

I sincerely doubt that, or have you
1. Sold all you have in order to spread the word and not waste time worry about worldly goods? Acts 4:32-35; Matthew 6:25-34; 1 Timothy 5:8
2. Believe that there is a 2000+ year old person running around on earth waiting till Jesus shows up again. Mark 13:30
3. Believe the world is flat. Mentioned numerous times in the OT and a few in the NT
4. Believe that people are predestined to salvation or damnation. John 3:3,


Christian Dude

Christianity is also very different from all other world religions in a very significant way. The gift of eternal life with the Lord in Heaven is just that, a gift. In all other religions, you earn your way into heaven or work at it over and over to achieve nirvana.

How is that different from the Christian protection racquet, ‘do what I [god] say or burn in hell’?

“Come let us reason together”, showing that faith in the Lord God is not a blind faith with no evidence or logic involved.

If you’ve got evidence, please present it.

So as you can see, I do not come from a position of ignorance. My reference of Michael Behe is only one of many Ph.D.s and scientists that I can refer to that believe in intelligent design, not evolution. They aren’t even Christians either.

Behe and his points have been refuted numerous times. How about actually researching some of Behe’s points for yourself and not just taking his word for it.

Then, using the acronym, MAPS, which stands for Manuscript evidence, Archeological evidence, Prophetic evidence, and Statistical probability, I show the validity of the Christian bible.

Ok, these I’ve got to hear.

If Behe is correct and there is a God, the Christian answer is that the almighty God, who has reveled himself to us in his three persons, has existed for eternity already.

This is nothing more than special pleading. If I’m not Christian but a follower of the FSM, then my answer of the FSM having created everything is just as valid as your claim of the Christian god having created everything.

He has always existed. He was not created, he is the creator of all things seen and unseen.

If god could have always existed then why couldn’t the universe have always existed?

Before his creation there was nothing but him. He spoke creation into existence.

You do realize that you’ve just trumped Behe’s primary argument in favor of ID. That this world is so complex that it requires a designer, who in turn must be more complex and would therefore require a designer, ad infinitum. Behe’s argument turns out to be nothing more than an argument from ignorance.


ramsey

I'd say that the idea of mercy as being a good thing rather than a flaw is one of the good things that has come from the Bible, and I doubt that humanism in the West would have been the same without it.

Nice, but the concepts of pity and mercy weren’t Christian. They had existed long before anyone named Jesus showed up on the scene.

I’ve only made it through about page 9. I’ll finish catching up later.

Ossai

 

[Ossai]

Christian Dude

Your right Paul, we have to use the Bible to present our arguments. You and I can talk about where science is at in this point in history, and can science prove or disprove the Christian Bible and faith. We can go on for years where I quote or refer to a scientist with a tremendous education and lots of Ph.D.s, then you respond back with the guys you like that are peers in the field we are discussing. Most likely, I will never persuade you that the guys I think are right, are right. Neither will you persuade me that the guys in your camp are right even though you have more guys in your camp. The guys in both our camps are intelligent thoughtful men and women with differing points of view. Just to dismiss either group with remarks that they are idiots is an emotional response, not a logical one. (I’m not saying you did that, but lots of people do on both sides.) With all the letters behind all these people’s names, they obviously are all very intelligent and well educated. Now the subject of wisdom is a very different thing.

You are referring to an argument by authority. The nice thing about science is you can throw the authorities out. It’s the evidence that matters not the number of Ph.D.

As far as disproving the bible, you first need to post what you actually believe about it and how you differentiate what are true verses what are just figurative verses. Unless you want to argue that the earth is flat.

We believe deep down you know it is true and the word will convict you and cause you to make a choice. That choice is to reject God and his love demonstrated to you by Jesus’ death on the cross, or to choose to love him back and respond to his offer of salvation and a eternal life with him in Heaven.

Your belief and reality are not the same.


kurious_kathy

That is definately true. Heaven is a big place, and God has room for everyone.

Not according to scripture.

Why would anyone not want to be there?

The Christian god as portrayed in the bible is a vain, arrogant, racist, insecure, jealous, a showoff and a braggart. Why would I want to hang out with him again?

That's not Ok, but I'll leave you with this thought, "One day every knee will bow, every tongue confess, Jesus Christ is Lord!"

Why? Jesus isn’t lord; he did not fulfill the messianic prophecies clearly laid out in the torah. Or are you saying that Jesus is the anti-christ and will fool everyone?

Great listing Hawk one.

Marquis de Carabas

Also, you're a heavy favourite already in this year's prestigious 1inChrist Memorial Completely Avoiding Bloody Questions Award.

I thought the MAS collective was a shoe in for that award this year.

Ossai

 

[Ducky]

Still don't see answers to this.

1. Actual research data done by ID "scientists" but we will see them poke at every one else's work.
2. ANY publication in peer reviewed journals, or any work done by ID "scientists" that is peer reviewed by mainstream science.
3. Any explanation why it is needed to inject metaphysics and unflasifiable ideas into science.
4. An argument from the ID side without a logical fallacy, or a misrepresentation of scientific study and evidence.

As for the rest, Hawk One said it more eloquently and politely than I would have. I defer to him.

Still waiting....

Not holding my breath...

 

[SezMe]

As far as disproving the bible, you first need to post what you actually believe about it and how you differentiate what are true verses what are just figurative verses. Unless you want to argue that the earth is flat.

He's a literalist, Ossai. Check back a page or so. Pesky "facts" such as earth being spherical don't seem to bother him too much.

 

[jjramsey]

I'd say that the idea of mercy as being a good thing rather than a flaw is one of the good things that has come from the Bible, and I doubt that humanism in the West would have been the same without it.

Nice, but the concepts of pity and mercy weren’t Christian. They had existed long before anyone named Jesus showed up on the scene.

Of course the concepts of pity and mercy existed long before anyone named Jesus showed up. The Jews, in spite of themselves, valued pity and mercy themselves. You might have noticed that I had quoted from the Old Testament, not just the new.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Christian Dude
You are referring to an argument by authority. The nice thing about science is you can throw the authorities out. It’s the evidence that matters not the number of Ph.D.

As far as disproving the bible, you first need to post what you actually believe about it and how you differentiate what are true verses what are just figurative verses. Unless you want to argue that the earth is flat.

Your belief and reality are not the same.


kurious_kathy
Not according to scripture.


The Christian god as portrayed in the bible is a vain, arrogant, racist, insecure, jealous, a showoff and a braggart. Why would I want to hang out with him again?

Why? Jesus isn’t lord; he did not fulfill the messianic prophecies clearly laid out in the torah. Or are you saying that Jesus is the anti-christ and will fool everyone?

Great listing Hawk one.

Marquis de Carabas
I thought the MAS collective was a shoe in for that award this year.

Ossai

You have a really messed up point of view if you say something like that. Are you really that arrogant that you could even make that statement? It churns my stomach!

Jesus is Lord! You must be serving Satan to even make a cold hearted, vile statement like that.
God does say we all must choose whom we serve? Seems obvious to me who you are serving!!
The Lord have mercy on your soul. One day you will meet your maker, and He will ask what you did with his son? On that day God's grace will be removed from your life and if you haven't received him, your sins will not be forgiven,"and into the abyss you will go with the demons you have served.
Why won't you choose life? The way you are going is death and destruction! It pains me to even hear it.
Are you by chance into the occult? Sure seems like you might be? You might want to read what some others that were turned from darkness to light have to say about it.
http://www.refugeministries.cc/main.asp

 

[ceo_esq]

Not according to scripture.

Actually, yes, according to Scripture (Jn 3:17; Jn 12:32; Jn 14:2; Rom 11:32; 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Titus 2:11; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20...). I understand Kathy's point.

 

[Christian Dude]

Still waiting....

Not holding my breath...

Hi foulsound,

I don't want to go round and round, for what could be years if we wanted, on this subject right now. Yes you have more guys in your camp. Anytime a guy in my camp refutes an evolutionist's claim, or defends his/her own claim, you have tons of guys to jump all over it and make an argument against it. Then I have to wait for my guys, in lesser number, to come back. I honestly don't want to go much further in this area right now. It is just too time consuming.

Would you at least agree it takes a lot of time to keep up on this stuff, and then lots of time for you and me to go back and forth on it?

I will probably be hanging around on this forum for a long time to come, so we will probably get the opportunity to discuss this again in the future. We should do it in another thread anyhow as it is not really the topic of this thread. OK my friend?

-dude

 

[Antiquehunter]

You have a really messed up point of view if you say something like that. Are you really that arrogant that you could even make that statement? It churns my stomach!

Jesus is Lord! You must be serving Satan to even make a cold hearted, vile statement like that.
God does say we all must choose whom we serve? Seems obvious to me who you are serving!!
The Lord have mercy on your soul. One day you will meet your maker, and He will ask what you did with his son? On that day God's grace will be removed from your life and if you haven't received him, your sins will not be forgiven,"and into the abyss you will go with the demons you have served.
Why won't you choose life? The way you are going is death and destruction! It pains me to even hear it.
Are you by chance into the occult? Sure seems like you might be? You might want to read what some others that were turned from darkness to light have to say about it.
http://www.refugeministries.cc/main.asp

Well you see Kathy... this is where it all breaks down. If you disagree with Ossai's statements, then you need to refute them by providing evidence contrary to his assertion. Not proselytizing and rabbiting on about fire and brimstone. Its pretty clear by now (or it should be) that Ossai does NOT fear the wrath of your god. If you want to convince him otherwise... it will take evidence, not hollow threats.

As to the suggestion Ossai is into the occult - I've never met Ossai. I have a hunch, however, that he is equally unafraid of the devil, as he is equally unafraid of the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and Merlin the Happy Pig.

"Why won't you choose life?" Well Kathy, I have. I lead a very fulfilled life sans god. I even have one of those Wham! 'Choose Life' T-shirts from the 80's!

 

[Ducky]

Hi foulsound,

I don't want to go round and round, for what could be years if we wanted, on this subject right now. Yes you have more guys in your camp. Anytime a guy in my camp refutes an evolutionist's claim, or defends his/her own claim, you have tons of guys to jump all over it and make an argument against it. Then I have to wait for my guys, in lesser number, to come back. I honestly don't want to go much further in this area right now. It is just too time consuming.

Would you at least agree it takes a lot of time to keep up on this stuff, and then lots of time for you and me to go back and forth on it?

I will probably be hanging around on this forum for a long time to come, so we will probably get the opportunity to discuss this again in the future. We should do it in another thread anyhow as it is not really the topic of this thread. OK my friend?

-dude

Quite honestly, I won't hold my breath. The reason why I have "so many" in my camp is that science is based on factual findings and is peer reviewed. Your ID camp doesn't publish their findings in mainstream science, and therefore can get away with making very scurrilous claims for a while without the rest of us bothering to notice.

We can wait all you want, but the ID folks don't do their own research, and only pick apart "my camp."

So let's examine your side. You make the claim for ID, you show me where they have used peer review and where they are accepted by mainstream science.

So here's my proposal, while we wait.

Show me one instance where a creationist or ID scientist has used their own research in paleontology, or biology to support their claim. Show me one instance they did not take a mainstream scientists' findings and skew it to their advantage.

Show me where they actually do scientific research.

 

[Christian Dude]

Come on foulsound. ID scientists do research and you know it. I do agree with you though about their taking, in your words, “mainstream scientists” research started by others, and then showing the flaws in the theories.

As far as peer review goes, even Hawking said that the debate was a valid one and worth pursuing.

And for ID scientists initiating new research. Yes I hope some interesting and compelling new and unique research will come up. I don’t know though. How do you create an experiment that shows how a God, that exists outside our physical universe, actually did create everything. ID does equal God, there is no way around that.

Kathy's topic is the Gospel and the offense. We need a new thread for this. If it is OK with you, I will pm you when I am ready to spare with you about this. Is that OK? And yes, don't hold your breath, I don't know if it will be a month, six months or whatever.

I did put a post in the thread titled "Why is ID so successful" in the Religion and Philosophy forum. You could read it and give me some recomendations on material I asked for. See you.

-dude

 

[Oleron]

You have a really messed up point of view if you say something like that. Are you really that arrogant that you could even make that statement? It churns my stomach!

Jesus is Lord! You must be serving Satan to even make a cold hearted, vile statement like that.
God does say we all must choose whom we serve? Seems obvious to me who you are serving!!
The Lord have mercy on your soul. One day you will meet your maker, and He will ask what you did with his son? On that day God's grace will be removed from your life and if you haven't received him, your sins will not be forgiven,"and into the abyss you will go with the demons you have served.
Why won't you choose life? The way you are going is death and destruction! It pains me to even hear it.
Are you by chance into the occult? Sure seems like you might be? You might want to read what some others that were turned from darkness to light have to say about it.
http://www.refugeministries.cc/main.asp

Let me respond by telling you that I am, in fact, the saviour of mankind and the creator of the earth. I am the messiah.
Don't question me, just do as I say or you will end up in hell for the rest of eternity.

You don't believe me? Why not? I have written it and presented my message to mankind. What you do with that message is up to you.

Why is my claim to cosmic omnipotence any less valid than god's? I have several things going for me that god lacks:

I exist and live on earth and can be met in person if anyone so wishes.
I am really a nice guy! I haven't smited anyone recently!
I don't even want worshipped, I just want you to acknowledge my deity. Much less than god wants.
I will give you real-world advice on your problems and encourage you to help yourself, rather than waiting on a sky daddy to solve everything for you.
AND you can have Sundays off!

Ok, charade over. I have to reveal now that I am not a god - almost had you there, didn't I?
The point to this post is that you didn't accept what I said about being god but you expect us to believe what you say about a different god.
If I really was a god, I would appear to each one of my followers in a blaze of light and mention to them that I really would prefer them to obey my command because the alternative is something I really don't enjoy.
Why doesn't god just do that simple thing? It is the one thing that would make me sit up and take notice and yet he won't do it. Why not? Doesn't he care that I am on my way to hell? How come he made some people with a believing nature and others, like me, with a need for hard evidence?

So because he made me non-gullible, I am going to fry?

Please try and answer the above questions without using the words 'faith' and 'ineffable'. We've already established that I am not capable of faith in an unseen god. Period.

 

[Ceritus]

That's not Ok, but I'll leave you with this thought,"One day every knee will bow, every tongue confess, Jesus Christ is Lord!"

I just wish I could show you what he has done for me. You would never deny him! I know he lives and I am so greatful to be turned around from living in darkness. My pagan days are over. That's a good thing.

Perhaps Kathy is trying to tell us that science and facts mean nothing to her as the fiction of the bible means nothing to us. Maybe she doesn't understand how things work and either not bright enough to comprehend it or just to lazy to try. But possibly from her position the facts in science mean to her about as much as the bible means to us.

 

[Odin]

ID scientists do research and you know it.

They certainly do!

How do you create an experiment that shows how a God, that exists outside our physical universe, actually did create everything. ID does equal God, there is no way around that.

ID can also equal aliens, the Invisible pink unicorn (PBUH), God(s),
Godess(es), or flying sphagetti monsters. Not just the Christian God.

 

[Dubium]

Kathy: if you were born in Iran you'd most likely be a Moslem, and if you were born in Tibet you'd most likely be a Buddhist. If you were born in a village in Africa you'd probably believe in the powers of the village healer, if the missionaries hadn't got to you. If you were born in South India you'd likely be Hindu - and so on and so on. You have become a christian because you live in a nominally 'christian' country, and there's a lot of it about. We tend to adopt the prevailing faith of the country and/or the people around us (until we see sense and drop the lot).


Insofar as your comments regarding satan are concerned, I can tell you as one who has been a charismatic - born-again that fundamentalist christians (in particular) prey on ex-occultists, scaring them with rubbish about satan wanting to steal them back from jesus. And you having dabbled with new age and occult stuff are very susceptible to the 'paranormal' aspect of christianity.

It's a bit like being on drugs. You have to come down eventually.