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The Gospel

Ryokan said:
A couple of Mormon missionaries tried something similar with me once. They asked me, have you ever heard of a religion that offers a greater reward than us (to become a god in the afterlife)? Even if the answer was no, that does not mean that what the Mormons believe is true. It's simply a selling point, to try and lure in people.
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Of ALL the Invisible Unicorns, you'll find none more Pink than the one we describe! :D
 
Zep said:
Name one supporter of ID who is NOT a christian.

Edited to add:

Actually, Behe has demonstrated no such thing. He has simply argued for that line, and most unconvincingly outside his own little circle of believers.

Anyway, if Michael Behe is correct and there was indeed a God who made the universe as we know it initially, who made God? And what was there before the he made everything?
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I thought I might get one post out during my lunch break. As you can see I am just following in order the comments I received. I will continue this evening and over the weekend if anyone cares to see my response to their comments.

Although Behe was born into a Roman Catholic family, it is my understanding that he does not attend church or follow his inherited faith.

I would disagree that his argument is unconvincing. His "own little circle of believers" is growing daily as people, laymen and scientists alike, investigate his claims. He is not the only scientist that has convincing arguments for ID as you know. Just because, at this point in history, scientists that accept ID as the source of all life are a minority, does not dismiss them as invalid. Since when does a majority have to agree to make something true? The majority of educated people on earth, at one point in history, thought the earth was flat among many other ideas that have been proven wrong. Does that mean the earth was flat until the majority of people decided it was a sphere?

If Behe is correct and there is a God, the Christian answer is that the almighty God, who has reveled himself to us in his three persons, has existed for eternity already. He has always existed. He was not created, he is the creator of all things seen and unseen. Before his creation there was nothing but him. He spoke creation into existence.

I know it is a very abstract concept to grasp that he has always existed. Yes that does mean he existed for eternity before he created anything, and that he will exist for eternity after he created all that exists in the physical and angelic realm.

That is all I have time for now, see you tonight.

-dude
 
Well we've had "I'm a watch, I was designed" and "Just because we're in the minority doesn't make us wrong."

I am using my psychic powers to predict these arguments will follow:

1. We'll see a complete misrepresentation of the second law of thermodynamics.
2. We'll see the pointing to "gaps" in evolutionary science as proof it's wrong.
3. We'll see a lack of understanding of the word "theory" as used in a scientific seting.
4. We may see a few urban legends referring to banannas and Darwin recanting his findings on his deathbed.
5. We will see the misrepresentation that science thinks it has all the answers.
6. The complete ignoring of the scientific method of peer review and self correcting nature of science.
7. The reference to evolution or science as a "religion."
8. Refernce to the earth's age in terms of thousands of years, not billions when every shred of scientific evidence points to billions.
9. Possibly the argument that God made the universe to appear billions of years old as a test of faith.
10. Arguments about what statistics show in regards to the creation of life, and an effort to say it is statistically impossible not to have been designed.

What we won't see:

1. Actual research data done by ID "scientists" but we will see them poke at every one else's work.
2. ANY publication in peer reviewed journals, or any work done by ID "scientists" that is peer reviewed by mainstream science.
3. Any explanation why it is needed to inject metaphysics and unflasifiable ideas into science.
4. An argument from the ID side without a logical fallacy, or a misrepresentation of scientific study and evidence.



Edited to add:

Did I miss anything?
 
Christian said:
I would disagree that his argument is unconvincing. His "own little circle of believers" is growing daily as people, laymen and scientists alike, investigate his claims.
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Care to state succinctly what he is claiming?

He is not the only scientist that has convincing arguments for ID as you know.
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Yes, another is Dembski, but his arguments are no more convincing.

I'm happy to discuss the arguments of both Behe and Dembski with you. Perhaps in another thread?

~~ Paul
 
fowlsound said:

8. Refernce to the earth's age in terms of thousands of years, not billions when every shred of scientific evidence points to billions.
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Damn you EVILutionists and your billions-years old Universe. It is manifestly obvious that the Universe is just a few million thousand years old.
 
Space (the Universe) is big. Really big. So big that you just can't imagine how hugely big it is.

In comparison, Earth is really small. Smaller yet is the number of people on the Earth who believe in this particulary entity.

I find it difficult to believe that the relatively miniscule humans are the sole focus of attention of this being that encompasses all space and time. Are we like Super Mario Power-ups or something?

(OK, that is admittedly an Argument from Incredulity -- does it count if part of the argument doesn't exist?)
 
Christian Dude said:
If Behe is correct and there is a God, the Christian answer is that the almighty God, who has reveled himself to us in his three persons, has existed for eternity already. He has always existed. He was not created, he is the creator of all things seen and unseen. Before his creation there was nothing but him. He spoke creation into existence.
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And if Behe is found incorrect, will the Christian answer change?

I know it is a very abstract concept to grasp that he has always existed. Yes that does mean he existed for eternity before he created anything, and that he will exist for eternity after he created all that exists in the physical and angelic realm.
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Please, easy on the condescension. "Forever" is not an especially abstract concept. We can handle Really Big Thoughts just fine.
 
Christian Dude said:
I know it is a very abstract concept to grasp that he has always existed. Yes that does mean he existed for eternity before he created anything, and that he will exist for eternity after he created all that exists in the physical and angelic realm.
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Not just abstract but logically incorrect.

If there has been an infinite amount of time before now, how did we get to this point in time? We couldn't. "Infinity" is a concept reserved for mathematics and should not be applied to philosophical or religious matters.

I think you'll find that the more mature and palatable concept is that He exists outside of time. Time just simply doesn't apply to God. He didn't exist "before" He created anything, because the word "before" is meaningless when referring to God.
 
Christian Dude said:
If Behe is correct and there is a God, the Christian answer is that the almighty God, who has reveled himself to us in his three persons, has existed for eternity already.
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But Intelligent Design may not directly correlate to a 'god'. (Am I correct?) Especially not a psychotic tribal god like Yahweh.

The "ID Generator" would be something with intelligence...who could design something.
 
Odin said:
My psychic powers predict that the arguments that follow will resemble this...
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Ah, IDiots, gotta love em. I just love how they quote Ricky D...

Famous evolutionist Richard Dawkins in his 1986 book The Blind Watchmaker acknowledges this problem when he admits, "Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose."
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...and then proceed to write a column that makes it painfully obvious that they did not read or did not understand the rest of the book.
 
Odin said:
My psychic powers predict that the arguments that follow will resemble this...
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Hanging from an ash tree for nine days and sacrificing an eye have given you great insight... ;)
 
May I point out that ID is an inference from human design. Period. Humans can only make things out of existing materials. Therefore we should not infer that the intelligent designer is also the creator. Another guy did the creation.

~~ Paul
 
Palimpsest said:
Hanging from an ash tree for nine days and sacrificing an eye have given you great insight... ;)
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Why do I read these threads? It's OOOoh, isn't Odin smart?... Or, or Woww! That Yahweh sure is somethin.

But us working gods, we're just blue collar nobodies. "A little higher Atlas... Could you move sky a little for me... Thanks, talk to you in an eon."

Ya know what? I don't care. I'm gonna drink beer and watch pre-season football. Sometimes I wish there really was a hell so I could say, "To hell, with you all," and really mean it. Alas, there is only this cheap precursor underworld, Hades.

See you around.
 
Atlas said:
Why do I read these threads? It's OOOoh, isn't Odin smart?... Or, or Woww! That Yahweh sure is somethin.

But us working gods, we're just blue collar nobodies. "A little higher Atlas... Could you move sky a little for me... Thanks, talk to you in an eon."

Ya know what? I don't care. I'm gonna drink beer and watch pre-season football. Sometimes I wish there really was a hell so I could say, "To hell, with you all," and really mean it. Alas, there is only this cheap precursor underworld, Hades.

See you around.
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Meh, you're not even a god, you're a titan. The Olympian Gods kicked your asses at the dawn of time, and you totally deserved it. I mean, Kronos was too dim to see he wasn't eating Zeus, and you yourself were outsmarted by Herakles. Herakles. I mean... come on!

;)
 
Calling kurious_kathy. Calling kurious_kathy. Did you get an answer to your OP question and so left us, leaving all our questions unanswered? And the point at which Christian Dude shows up, you take a hike. Why? Is there a connection? Or was the heat a bit much?

C'mon, somebody with god's love ought to be able to duke it out with us pathetic heathens.
 
SezMe said:
Calling kurious_kathy. Calling kurious_kathy. Did you get an answer to your OP question and so left us, leaving all our questions unanswered? And the point at which Christian Dude shows up, you take a hike. Why? Is there a connection? Or was the heat a bit much?

C'mon, somebody with god's love ought to be able to duke it out with us pathetic heathens.
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Checking the IP addresses should show if they're the same computer. My theory was it's her husband or minister responding when she couldn't.
 
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