The Gospel

[MapMack]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Have you ever heard the song Amazing grace? That's how it feels to be made whole in Christ!

Originally posted by Christian Dude
I encourage everyone here that has been dialoging with Kathy to seriously consider the wisdom in the bible verses Kathy has been sharing.

I know that feeling all to well Kathy, and at one time read the Bible religiously (no pun intended). I experienced the whole "baptism by fire", spoke in tongues, and felt I had a constant contact with God. While I have just started posting here, I have been lurking for quite a while learning the personalities. I think you will find that several others on this forum can make similar claims. The suggestion I offered Kathy comes from the heart. It was the start of my own path towards what can at most be described as deism if not atheism. I can honestly say that I walk down the street today with a feeling just as good, without god. I revel in the universe, the people around me, and live my life knowing with all my heart that this is all there is, and that makes life that much more worth living. I stood on the top of a Mayan pyramid and wondered at the people that worshiped there, prayed to gods that I couldn't picture fully believing that was the correct path. I read Plato and realized that here was one of the greatest intellects of all time, casually talking about his pantheon of gods being true as a mater of course. This and other similar experiences made me reconsider why I had chosen Christianity. To make a long story shorter, I came to the conclusion that it was just the religion at hand.

Originally posted by Christian Dude
The gift of eternal life with the Lord in Heaven is just that, a gift. In all other religions, you earn your way into heaven or work at it over and over to achieve nirvana.

Christian_Dude, What I here you saying is, "Pick Jesus, he doesn't make you work for it". This is something else that made me question this faith. Nothing else in life is that easy. Also, who says it is true. There are several religions that have longer histories, more thoughtful saints, and many of them say it must be accomplished over several life times of dedicated work. That sounds more plausible. It all comes down to which human’s baseless faith you are going to accept. You can say it is all from God’s book, but you must chose which human you are going to believe when choosing which book to follow, and how to interpret it.

 

[Odin]

Trollisis 12:23:
And it was that 1inchrist went forth to the lands of the MAS. And the path of the many trolls did open unto him.

 

[SezMe]

Trollisis 12:23:
And it was that 1inchrist went forth to the lands of the MAS. And the path of the many trolls did open unto him.

I think you are too quick to put down a new member. He has not exhibited trollish behavior yet. Give the lad a chance.

 

[Odin]

I think you are too quick to put down a new member. He has not exhibited trollish behavior yet. Give the lad a chance.

Your right I was too quick, it was just the way he turned up so soon after kurious_kathy. But if this gets like the Dr. Mas threads I'll be suspicious

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

O. K. at your request, here are some of the scriptures you requested to help clerify those statements.

Thanks for your reply, but...

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift from God- not by works so that no one can boast.

...or is it by works, after all, as Matthew, for example, would have us believe?

[fquote]Mt.16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.[/fquote]

John 3:16-18" For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only son.

As for good old John 3:16, if God is, as you say, hoping we all accept such a gift, He is betting against Himself when he ordained who gets saved and who doesn't, as is illustrated in, among other places, Ephesians...

[fquote]1:4-5 He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.[/fquote]

So is it not of works, or is it of works, and what say do I have in it? Why do you choose to interpret the Bible as endorsing grace and free will when, say, a good staunch Calvinist does not?

 

[Kimpatsu]

Your right I was too quick

...because you didn't want to be left behind...?

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

We need a new smilie that means:

"The evidence you just gave for the veracity of some statement in the Bible is circular, because you quoted some other statement in the Bible to support it."

Really, if I had a nickel for every time someone supported their Christian claim with evidence outside the Bible, why, I'd not even have enough money for a pack of gum.

~~ Paul

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Christian Dude said:
Have you heard of biochemist Michael Behe, Professor of Biochemistry, Department of Biological Sciences, Lehigh University? He has very effectively demonstrated that it is impossible for random chance to create complex biological organisms and processes.

Too bad evolution is not "random chance." And if you say one more time that it is, I will call you a liar.

~~ Paul

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Hello everyone,


First off, as I respect each person here and each person’s view of life, I do disagree with the evolutionists idea of the origin of life. To me, the origin of life is the key belief that all other beliefs and values a person holds stem from. If we are a cosmic accident, then there is no morality and absolute truth. If there is a creator, then there is one who has designed life, then life is governed by the truth of the creator.

How can you trust someone who lies? Who bungles his creation and destroys it ?
And if it is obvious that the universe required a creator, then it is also obvious that the creator required a creator ..



Christianity is also very different from all other world religions in a very significant way. The gift of eternal life with the Lord in Heaven is just that, a gift. In all other religions, you earn your way into heaven or work at it over and over to achieve nirvana.


Sounds like you have a lot of studying to do concerning all the world's religions, not to mention many Christians and the Bible itself that disagrees with you..


Oh, and the gift thing.. It really isn't fair, loving and just like you seem to think it is.. Who in their right mind would suggest it is just, that a serial killer can join their victims in heaven; or even go to heaven, while their victims go to hell even though they might have been good people who's only mistake was not believing a particular version of God..

I encourage everyone here that has been dialoging with Kathy to seriously consider the wisdom in the bible verses Kathy has been sharing. Although faith is believing in things unseen. In Isaiah 1:18 the Lord says “Come let us reason together”, showing that faith in the Lord God is not a blind faith with no evidence or logic involved. If you approach Christianity with an open heart and a true desire to discern if it is true or not, I think you will discover Jesus is who he said he was.

Perhaps you haven't noticed that Kathy has no idea what dialogue is.. She is preaching..

Although I am not a theologian or a biblical scholar, I am a layman that has studied the word of God for over ten years. In respect I would like to join in with this ongoing discussion.

Can you explain to us how you know the Bible is the word of God without using the Bible as your proof ?

 

[Atlas]

Hello everyone,

As you can see by my user name and signature, my thinking and view of life comes from a biblical Christian world view. ...

First off, as I respect each person here and each person’s view of life, I do disagree with the evolutionists idea of the origin of life. To me, the origin of life is the key belief that all other beliefs and values a person holds stem from.

Welcome Christian Dude,

One of the key beliefs I look at is how a person relates to the Adam and Eve story. It's such a bizarre tale with the talking snake and it's full of implications. The lineage of man is described back to Adam. How the world didn't have sin and then it did. Some spirits can make themselves visible as talking animals.

I have trouble buying it. Do you?

Since I don't buy it, what value is Jesus. The Jesus myth depends on the Adam myth. Do you agree?

Is evolution really harder to accept than Adam and Eve. How so? What criteria do you apply to evolution and Adam that makes Adam so very true and evolution so very false.

 

[Palimpsest]

If we are a cosmic accident, then there is no morality and absolute truth.

Disagree. There may not be any absolute truth (except the truth that we are an accident) but there will always be morality: morality we come up with ourselves.

Christianity is also very different from all other world religions in a very significant way. The gift of eternal life with the Lord in Heaven is just that, a gift. In all other religions, you earn your way into heaven or work at it over and over to achieve nirvana.

Well, sure, I've heard it before. It's a popular selling point, one which other salesmen use all the time. You too can get washboard abs and achieve salvation is just minutes a day!

Besides, as I and others have pointed out to Kathy, eternal life seems to be a pretty arbitrary or conditional gift.

In Isaiah 1:18 the Lord says “Come let us reason together”, showing that faith in the Lord God is not a blind faith with no evidence or logic involved. If you approach Christianity with an open heart and a true desire to discern if it is true or not, I think you will discover Jesus is who he said he was.

So, how open should our hearts be? Should we be as open to Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, or Voodoo while we study Christianity?

I've looked up Isaiah 1. It doesn't seem to be in support of reason and logic at all, but mostly a rant about how rebellious and bad Israel has become, and how Yahweh will give it a good whupping if it doesn't shape up. The "let us reason together" (from what I've seen) can also be translated as "let's talk". Which seems a bit pointless to me, since Yahweh is the one with all the power, holding all the cards.

Can you find any Bible verses that praise independent thought, that rank reason and skepticism equal to (or greater than) faith and obedience?

 

[Christian Dude]

Welcome!

And would you be so kind as to point out to us where evolution has anything to do with the origins of life, please.

Also, there are millions of people in the world who subscribe to other "bibles" who are just as sure theirs is the "one and only" right religion, including having heavenly characters starring in them. Would you kindly explain how the christian bible is any different to them. Note the word "different", not "better", "different".

To quote a line from a Nova episode on evolution, "From these one-celled organisms evolved all life on earth."

People of all other faiths are trying to achieve their salvation by their own strength through their actions. In my discussions with people of other faiths, that is my starting point. Then, using the acronym, MAPS, which stands for Manuscript evidence, Archeological evidence, Prophetic evidence, and Statistical probability, I show the validity of the Christian bible.

When taking to people of other faiths, the issue of whether or not a God exists is not an issue, so we can then focus on the issue of proving the Christian bible true.

If anyone is interested, I will not be able to participate in the discussion again until late evening west coast time. I will respond to any comments and questions directed my direction then and during the weekend.

-dude

 

[Tricky]

Hi Kimpatsu, in my reading on the subject of evolution vs. creation, I have found quite a few interesting facts that demonstrate evolution as Darwin originally proposed, and other evolutionists have modified, is seriously flawed. It takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as creation in my opinion.

Have you heard of biochemist Michael Behe, Professor of Biochemistry, Department of Biological Sciences, Lehigh University? He has very effectively demonstrated that it is impossible for random chance to create complex biological organisms and processes. He has several books out, one being Darwin’s Black Box. So as you can see, I do not come from a position of ignorance. My reference of Michael Behe is only one of many Ph.D.s and scientists that I can refer to that believe in intelligent design, not evolution. They aren’t even Christians either.

Hello CD.

Like many here, I am a former Christian who searched for years for answers in the Bible which never came. All I could see were more and more layers of "you must take it on faith". It was difficult to give up Christianity, but I have been much happier since I have done so.

As to Michael Behe, his work has been quite effectively debunked, due in great par to the work of Richard Dawkins whose book The Blind Watchmaker shows cases where Behe is simply arguing from the point of personal incredulity.

As to the list of scientists who believe in ID, have you ever heard of Project Steve? It is a list of scientists who work in relevant fields who do support evolution. The list is much longer than any list of those who don't (and they are all volunteers). The kicker is that all of them have the first name Steve, Steven, Stephan or some variety of same. It is intended to demolish the sort of "argument from authority" that is presented by ID supporters when they make a list of scientists. They are in the overwhelmingly vast minority.'

But welcome to the boards and try not to take anything personally. It can be enlightening.

 

[billydkid]

Song

Can you explain to us how you know the Bible is the word of God without using the Bible as your proof ?

You know what song always irritated the hell out of me - "Jesus love me this I know. 'Cause the bible tells me so." Now how does that make any sense? You know that Jesus loves you because your source for your notion that there was a Jesus tells you it's so? It's completely self referencing. People believe that Jesus was the son of God because they grew up in a society that told them that and because there a book that says so. Of course, the evangelicals take a whole different tack - they insist that their personal experiences with God and Jesus confirm their preexisting beliefs. This is a notion that is even alien to the big formal christian religions. Catholics never claim that God entered their hearts and revealed his love. I am very curious about this experience. Jimmy Swaggart always liked to say - "God spoke to my heart." I would be very curious to know exactly what that means. Spoke to your heart????? This whole "personal relationship with God" thing - very heady stuff being one on one with the big guy. Pretty tough to verify though. What if it's really Satan "speaking to your heart" and fooling you?

 

[Ryokan]

To quote a line from a Nova episode on evolution, "From these one-celled organisms evolved all life on earth."

Yes, but evolution does not explain how life BEGAN! Only how it became what it is today.

When taking to people of other faiths, the issue of whether or not a God exists is not an issue, so we can then focus on the issue of proving the Christian bible true.

Oh, really? I'm a Buddhist, and I would say it's an issue. But I guess when you say people of other faiths, you're really saying other Christians and/or other monotheists.

Christianity is also very different from all other world religions in a very significant way. The gift of eternal life with the Lord in Heaven is just that, a gift. In all other religions, you earn your way into heaven or work at it over and over to achieve nirvana.

So? The religion that offers the most at the lowest price is the real one? That doesn't sound logical at all. A couple of Mormon missionaries tried something similar with me once. They asked me, have you ever heard of a religion that offers a greater reward than us (to become a god in the afterlife)? Even if the answer was no, that does not mean that what the Mormons believe is true. It's simply a selling point, to try and lure in people.

I have no idea why people are not extremely wary of religions that offer you rewards after you're dead! If a car salesman offered you the car of your dreams, extremely cheap, but you would get the car after your death, would you buy it?

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ryokan
If a car salesman offered you the car of your dreams, extremely cheap, but you would get the car after your death, would you buy it?

---

Does it have air conditioning? I'm gunna need it where I'm going.

edited for ?

 

[Genesius]

Quoth the Marquis de Carabas

Does it have air conditioning? I'm gunna need it where I'm going.

Better make sure it's got a good heater, too - just in case you end up in Cocytus. . .

From Wikipedia:
In The Divine Comedy (Inferno), Cocytus is the ninth and lowest circle of Hell and is frozen by the flapping wings of Lucifer, or Satan. In the Inferno Cocytus is referred to as a frozen lake rather than a river, although it originates from the same source as the other infernal rivers

 

[jjramsey]

Then, using the acronym, MAPS, which stands for Manuscript evidence, Archeological evidence, Prophetic evidence, and Statistical probability, I show the validity of the Christian bible.

Manuscript evidence: For the New Testament, this shows that we can have reasonable confidence of what the authors of the New Testament had originally written, which isn't too helpful if the question is whether what was originally written was correct in the first place. For the Old Testament, this gets stickier. For example, there is a Greek manuscript of Jeremiah (obviously an early translation) that conflicts a bit with the Masoretic Hebrew version of Jeremiah. There are also issues of whether books like Isaiah's had substantial additions by later authors, i.e. the so-called "Second Isaiah."

Archeological evidence: At best, this demonstrates that the overall setting of the various narratives in the Bible is correst. At worst, it works against the Bible, especially in the Old Testament.

Prophetic evidence: This gets tricky. Some prophecies are taken out of context. In others, the supposed events that the prophecies predict, such as Jesus being born in Bethlehem, may not have even happened.

Statistical probability: I don't even know what this is supposed to mean, so I won't further comment.

 

[Odin]

Quite an interesting site here...

 

[Tony]

Quite an interesting site here...

LOL The masthead on that site says "Faith facts". Thats got to be one of the biggest oxymorons I've ever seen.