Christian Dude
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The Apostle John wrote Revelation, under inspiration from the resurrected Lord Jesus, about 90 AD, Nero was Cesar at that time.Zep said:
The Gospel
- Thread starter kurious_kathy
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Did you actually read and understand the information I supplied? If not, here's the simple but important bit again:Christian Dude said:
Also, if John the Apostle wrote in 90AD (and it's more likely his secretary wrote for him anyway), that would have made him a VERY old man, certainly much much older than most of his contemporaries would have ever lived to. The average well-fed Roman usually only lived to the age of about 50 to 60, so a less well nourished person would likely die much sooner. So two points: First, If John had in deed lived to extreme old age, have you ever heard of the common condition of the aged called "dementia"? And don't you think that Revelations sounds like the product of a demented mind? Second: If John had NOT lived to a great age, you would be incorrect in saying it was written first-hand.
Incidentally, since the Council of Nicea voted on which books to retain in the Bible, and given that all candidate books were "God-inspired", why is Revelations any more worthy than those which were discarded? Could it be that it was considered merely more "politically correct" for its day?
jjramsey
Graduate Poster
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Zep said:
If it didn't resemble certain other works of Jewish literature, namely apocalyptic literature, and to parts of the Old Testament like Daniel and Ezekiel that are either apocalyptic literature or some of its precursors, one might say that it did. However, that family resemblance suggests that the fantastic imagery was done as a conscious attempt to fit certain conventions, rather than as a result of an acid trip.
More to the point, if the book of Revelation was written around 90-100 A.D., then whoever wrote it, whether John or someone else, was around after Nero had come on the scene and could have written about him.
I suggest looking at what some liberal scholars say on the matter. You should see the same kind of stuff that I mentioned.
Now you are talking like an actual biblical scholar!jjramsey said:
My real point was to try and get Christian Dude to actually go do some detailed research on the subject, go to the library, read some real studies, start thinking!, rather than mindlessly parroting the rubbish party line from his fundamentalist teachers, whoever they are. If he had indeed come back to me with the type of response such as you just have, I would have known he had done so. And he would thus have been exposed to the possibility that what he was being fed was not really true. REAL revelations could possibly follow...
ETA: I'm sure you realised that what I wrote was just more of my off-the-cuff analysis, didn't you?
Size of heaven
Interesting calculation, ceo_esq (no I don't know why you did it either!).
Just wanted to pick up on "many many more". The total number of people who have ever lived turns out to be about 100 billion:
http://www.peopleandplanet.net/doc.php?id=1820
http://www.math.hawaii.edu/~ramsey/People.html
And a quarter trillion is only 250 billion. So your heaven is big enough, for sure, but it's not very many times too big, if there is universal salvation.
Suppose the population stabilises out at about 10 billion (as I think I have seen estimated) then it might only take another 1000 - 1200 years to fill the place up. To refine this estimate we'd need to make some assumptions about future average life expectancy, and especially whether global health inequalities will increase or decrease.
How long is Yahweh intending to keep this kooky experiment of his going? Maybe this gives us an upper bound anyway.
My guess is that's why they put in the clause about the city being 1500 miles tall. It's room for expansion. If you get in quick, you get a good room. Then when it's full they start building the next layer.
My father's house has many rooms. But latecomers might get their view blocked by building works.
Interesting calculation, ceo_esq (no I don't know why you did it either!).
Just wanted to pick up on "many many more". The total number of people who have ever lived turns out to be about 100 billion:
http://www.peopleandplanet.net/doc.php?id=1820
http://www.math.hawaii.edu/~ramsey/People.html
And a quarter trillion is only 250 billion. So your heaven is big enough, for sure, but it's not very many times too big, if there is universal salvation.
Suppose the population stabilises out at about 10 billion (as I think I have seen estimated) then it might only take another 1000 - 1200 years to fill the place up. To refine this estimate we'd need to make some assumptions about future average life expectancy, and especially whether global health inequalities will increase or decrease.
How long is Yahweh intending to keep this kooky experiment of his going? Maybe this gives us an upper bound anyway.
My guess is that's why they put in the clause about the city being 1500 miles tall. It's room for expansion. If you get in quick, you get a good room. Then when it's full they start building the next layer.
My father's house has many rooms. But latecomers might get their view blocked by building works.
<---- Like my avatar, KK?
I agree with what the other poster said, and I am not into the occult at all. I am an atheist. I do not believe in anything supernatural. And that includes any sort of occult belief you can think of.
To answer your question...if "He" asked me what I did with his son, the answer is simple: That happened 2000 years before I was born. WTF are you asking me about it for?
Why won't I choose life? What are you talking about? I have a fabulous, wonderful, fulfilled life. I have a great family, great friends, great girlfriends, a great career, I'm very comfortable financially, have lots of nice toys, go on great vacations, enjoy spending time by myself as much as I enjoy spending time with my friends, and am overall just having a fabulous time being alive. And I don't need to believe in fairytales to do it.
You mention death? I'm not afraid of it. At all. As best as I can tell from what I know of the human mind, death is just a complete lack of consciousness. Total nothingness. Since there is no awareness whatsoever, what is there to be afraid of? Do I want to die? Not anytime soon. Read the previous paragraph of what a fantastic life I'm having. I'm enjoying my time as best I can. But as I grow old and change, and my time alive is coming to an end, I will not be afraid of death. Unlike you, I'm sure, I don't need myths to make me feel better about what happens after I die.
kurious_kathy said:
I agree with what the other poster said, and I am not into the occult at all. I am an atheist. I do not believe in anything supernatural. And that includes any sort of occult belief you can think of.
To answer your question...if "He" asked me what I did with his son, the answer is simple: That happened 2000 years before I was born. WTF are you asking me about it for?
Why won't I choose life? What are you talking about? I have a fabulous, wonderful, fulfilled life. I have a great family, great friends, great girlfriends, a great career, I'm very comfortable financially, have lots of nice toys, go on great vacations, enjoy spending time by myself as much as I enjoy spending time with my friends, and am overall just having a fabulous time being alive. And I don't need to believe in fairytales to do it.
You mention death? I'm not afraid of it. At all. As best as I can tell from what I know of the human mind, death is just a complete lack of consciousness. Total nothingness. Since there is no awareness whatsoever, what is there to be afraid of? Do I want to die? Not anytime soon. Read the previous paragraph of what a fantastic life I'm having. I'm enjoying my time as best I can. But as I grow old and change, and my time alive is coming to an end, I will not be afraid of death. Unlike you, I'm sure, I don't need myths to make me feel better about what happens after I die.
kurious_kathy
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Well I guess you are one of the ones that gets his reward here and now. But the soul goes on well after our bodies die and if you haven't received God's gift of salvation through Christ, then you will be judged by your own sins in your life.Freakshow said:<---- Like my avatar, KK?
Why won't I choose life? What are you talking about? I have a fabulous, wonderful, fulfilled life. I have a great family, great friends, great girlfriends, a great career, I'm very comfortable financially, have lots of nice toys, go on great vacations, enjoy spending time by myself as much as I enjoy spending time with my friends, and am overall just having a fabulous time being alive. And I don't need to believe in fairytales to do it.
You mention death? I'm not afraid of it. At all. As best as I can tell from what I know of the human mind, death is just a complete lack of consciousness. Total nothingness. Since there is no awareness whatsoever, what is there to be afraid of? Do I want to die? Not anytime soon. Read the previous paragraph of what a fantastic life I'm having. I'm enjoying my time as best I can. But as I grow old and change, and my time alive is coming to an end, I will not be afraid of death. Unlike you, I'm sure, I don't need myths to make me feel better about what happens after I die.
You mentioned girlfriends? Sounds like you are a bit immoral if you are sleeping with them but not married? Or are they just friends? Also is money your priority? It is said a man cannot serve God and money? It's such a blinder if you ask me. It's what corrupts so many people in society.
What Jesus did on the cross is not a myth. And the word of God is life to those that believe! I know it's true, every word!
The second death will be worse than the first if you haven't received Jesus. A soul matters to me and I need to share that with anyone who may have an ear to hear?
Alex DeLarge
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kurious_kathy said:
How is that a question?
kurious_kathy
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And because I believe Jesus died for me, I am saved!Freakshow said:
He is so alive in me that I can see the truth, and that is what sets me apart from you. I am walking in the light now. This world is so blind and I know the difference now. This world is not my home. There is an eternity in heaven with Jesus. I am so glad he set me free from the deception that is so evident in this cold, dark world. He is the only light that shines!
And I am thankful to know I am a child of the king. Jesus is Lord and Savior! If you won't believe there is nothing I can say to make you. But I believe and because of that, I am free!
Dredred
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You sure are a negative nancy! If you can love yourself and others, this world is fantastic! Not cold and dark at all.kurious_kathy said:
Anyway, have fun in eternity in heaven with Jesus. I hope there's something for you to do there besides praying and singing psalms. Maybe you can organize some bingo nights.
pgwenthold
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kurious_kathy said:
I've mentioned this before to you, but you didn't respond to it. Maybe you missed it.
You claim all this about Jesus being alive in you and that he "set you free from the deception that is so evident..."
I guess that sounds good for you and all, but what about me? Obviously, Jesus has not "set me free" and is not alive in me. Why not? Why does Jesus chose you and not me? Moreover, why should Jesus punish me for not believing in him if he doesn't set me free like he did with you? You are so deluded that you don't even realize how arrogant you are when you make claims like this. "Look at me, I'm special. Jesus treats me special."
Your crowing here is meaningless. What you should be doing is praying for this Jesus to do the right thing and set the rest of us free like he did with you. He has the ability to do it, if he wants. He apparently wanted to do it with you. If he doesn't want to set me free, who are you to contradict his will?
kurious_kathy
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1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
John 12:35
Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going.
Luke 11:35
See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness.
I know He lives. Jesus died so we might live, but we must believe!
And the only reason you don't believe is because you are choosing not too. Why? He says if you seek, you will find Him. I have found Him to be true to His word. He can and does prove Himself if you truely want to know. But our hearts and minds must be earnestly open and seeking the truth from Him! Not mans wisdom, God's truth and wisdom. There is knowlege that sets us free! And I know if He did it for me, this once pagan minded woman, He can do it for you too!
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
John 12:35
Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going.
Luke 11:35
See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness.
I know He lives. Jesus died so we might live, but we must believe!
And the only reason you don't believe is because you are choosing not too. Why? He says if you seek, you will find Him. I have found Him to be true to His word. He can and does prove Himself if you truely want to know. But our hearts and minds must be earnestly open and seeking the truth from Him! Not mans wisdom, God's truth and wisdom. There is knowlege that sets us free! And I know if He did it for me, this once pagan minded woman, He can do it for you too!
