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The giant cop out

Tmy said:
There are no radical lefties. Can anyone point to a Bizzaro JK??? We can always count on a "Its the feminazi's causing all these overcast days." From Jedi and a couple others. But I cant recall comparable kookieness from the left.

Maybe I can start......... ITS RAINING TODAY, ITS ALL REAGANS FAULT.

I have never bought JK's act. I think he is just on here to get a rise out of people, and he found the most effective way was to adopt a militant personality.
I'm not saying he doesn't believe some of what he says, but I'm almost positive he isn't really so radical in his viewpoints.

I rarely respond to his posts for this reason. The contrivance reeks through, and I can only shake my head and laugh.
Sometimes I'm actually impressed because he does have a very special talent for knowing which buttons to push to get a rise out of people.
 
From my view of the States, there is no mainstream left wing party. The Democrats are just slightly to the right, and the Rebuplicans are extreme right wing.

Here in Canada, at least at the Federal level, the parties are a bit more spread out. The New Democratic Party is pretty left wing, the Liberal Party is moderate, the Progressive Conservatives are slightly right wing, and the Alliance Party moreso, but not as far right as the American Repulicans.

I'm not sure what the point of this was, I just wanted to show that the American political system is for the most part conservative and doesn't give the voters much choice, compared to other countries.
 
Re: Re: Re: The giant cop out

KelvinG said:
Is it really fair to classify anyone on this board as totally "left" or totally "right."
Actually I think that a board that promotes critical thinking will tend to weed out or not attract those who fall into those categories. However, we do have Mr. Case and Mr. Point. I would say, though, that they add to my enjoyment of this forum instead of detract.

Personally, I'm not going to do it anymore.
I agree, I say we form a pact. No more starting…now.

And if someone's argument consists of "Ah, just what the left (or right) would say" then they obviously aren't equipped for a serious debate.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with pointing out that someone is pulling their party line (although, extremism is rarely the party line). Although if someone thinks that just because another individual is from an opposing party that they are wrong intrinsically then the former person may not have a good case. Huh? I have to think about that sentence some more.

Who farted?
He who smelt it…
 
rustypouch said:
From my view of the States, there is no mainstream left wing party. The Democrats are just slightly to the right, and the Rebuplicans are extreme right wing.

Here in Canada, at least at the Federal level, the parties are a bit more spread out. The New Democratic Party is pretty left wing, the Liberal Party is moderate, the Progressive Conservatives are slightly right wing, and the Alliance Party moreso, but not as far right as the American Repulicans.

I'm not sure what the point of this was, I just wanted to show that the American political system is for the most part conservative and doesn't give the voters much choice, compared to other countries.

I went to the NDP website the other day, just to refresh myself on their agenda, and found myself saying "Wow, a little to liberal for me."
I agreed with some issues, but a lot of them were a little to extreme for me.
I think that is why I prefer the Liberal party. Despite their name, they are not the most liberal party in the country. The are more moderate.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: The giant cop out

no one in particular said:
He who smelt it…

That would never stand up in a court of law. You can't prove nothing.:D

But yes, you make good points. I'm seriously going to curb my tendencies to spout phrases like "You crazy right winger" or "That's something I would expect someone on the right to say."
Also starting...now.
 
Re: Re: The giant cop out

no one in particular said:
Originally posted by Malachi151
I think most people on "the right" side are either confused, mislead, or malicious.

That's fine, but I can back up my points with facts.

When I say "right" I'm primarily talking about those who consider themselves "fiscal ceonservatives", and people who base their polical ideas on religion.

#1 I think that religon is a crock and by definition anyone basing political ideology on religion is mislead and confused.

#2 I think that this country has been filled with free-market capitalist propaganda for 30 years to the point that many people have such a poor grasp of economics today they support "right wing" economic policy out of being mislead and having misconceptions.

IMO anyone that supports the idea of a flat tax or thinks that the free-market is a good idea is simply not educated on economics.

The politicans that promote this stuff are likewise either mislead or malicious in their attempt to consolidate economic power in the country and support malicious corporatism and big business.

Anyone who is against environment regulation ideologically has got to either be a moron or malicious.

Many people who support "the right" do so out of not understanding the real effects of their policies, which I have written an entire paper about, which you can find in my sig.

Its things like "The Healthy Forest Initiative" and "The Clear Skies Act", etc, which do the exact opposite of what Bush claims that they do.

We have lots of people in this country that say things like: "All these countries need to be kissing our ass because we give everyone so much foreign aid, etc, etc, all they do is complain and all we do is give handouts."

Yet, you try to explain to them how foreign aid relaly works and they either dismiss it or just walk away. There is a whole legion of willfully ignorant people in America who support the "right -wing" agenda. If you want to contest that claim then fine, but I'll support it all day long. I don't consider pointing out facts to be either left wing or right wing. Facts are facts and should always be considered neutral IMO.

When I say stuff like:

Overall, what has taken place in America over the past 50 years is that American leadership, both public and private, has become increasingly secretive. A framework of lies has been created in which American society functions, which is separate from the modern views of reality in which American leadership functions. American leaders continue to support this framework of lies and use this framework of lies as an arena within which to present ideas to us, the American people. Within this framework of lies the world appears to be a simplistic place of good and evil. The feeling of Americans that we are the most successful people on earth and that America is the most successful country is used to support the idea that America's policies are inherently altruistic because our culture tells us that success is the measure of goodness. What is actually the case though is that America is successful precisely because American policy is not altruistic.

"We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction."

It's time for George Keenan's message to be understood by all Americans, and for us to face reality as a society with our eyes wide open, not as an uninformed mob that is puppeted by liars and thieves.

Yep, I'll be considered a radical lefty all day long by some people, but the facts still remain. Left and right is relative. Our country is so immersed in "right-wing" ideology that anything slightly left of center appears to be radical leftist to many Americans, yet in reality its actually quite tame.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: The giant cop out

no one in particular said:
Facts, huh?

Thanks for proving my point about deceptive discussion :D

Way to quote out of context, prove nothing and confuse the issues.
 
rustypouch said:
From my view of the States, there is no mainstream left wing party. The Democrats are just slightly to the right, and the Rebuplicans are extreme right wing.

Yes, but you have to consider your own viewpoint as well. You say that Democrats are not that far left but Republicans are far right, correct? Well, as compared to Europe/Canada that is correct. It is definitely not correct as compared to the Middle East. Many of their conservative governments make the US’s Republicans look like pinkos.

So, I think that the US is not shifted to the right as compared to Europe/Canada, it nicely in the center as compared to the world.
 
no one in particular said:


So, I think that the US is not shifted to the right as compared to Europe/Canada, it nicely in the center as compared to the world.

Interesting point. I agree.
 
no one in particular said:


Yes, but you have to consider your own viewpoint as well. You say that Democrats are not that far left but Republicans are far right, correct? Well, as compared to Europe/Canada that is correct. It is definitely not correct as compared to the Middle East. Many of their conservative governments make the US’s Republicans look like pinkos.

So, I think that the US is not shifted to the right as compared to Europe/Canada, it nicely in the center as compared to the world.

It doesn't work that way. No suprize, though Tony agrees with you :p

You don't compare one country to another to determine where a country is in the politcal spectrum you compare a country against the political spectrum itself.

What you said is like saying that one block is red, the other is yellow, and so the one that is orange is in the middle of the spectrum. That's not true.

The political spectrum stands on its own and is comprized of all politcal ideology. Everycountry in the world can be right wing, or left wing and that would not mean that the countries between Nazi fascist at one extreme and American Republican at the other were centrict countries, it would mean that everyone is shifted to the right.

In American the acceptable politcal spectrume ranges from far right like David Duke, Pat Buchannan, Jerry Falwell (all of these people get airtime and lots of press) to mild left such as Al Gore and Hillary Clinton.

Far Left would be Marxists and Communsits. When was the last time you saw Communsits giving speeches on TV and being given serious air time equal to Falwell types? Marxism and Communism are still dirty words in America.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/
 
And here are my results BTW:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -6.88
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -3.95
 
Come on, this entire thread is a logic fallacy.

What KelvinG is proposing is that it is perfectly acceptable for someone to openly support political issues virtually trademarked by the right or left political wings and then claim "political neutrality".

That is laughable.

If you support leftist policies, you are a leftist. If you support rightist policies you are a rightist. There is no grey area in any political ideology.

If you advocate a political position, you get the baggage that goes with it (all of that political wing's positions).

That is the nature of politics and won't change. Politics is simply the struggle over limited resources. If you are really 'neutral', you would have no political position over those limited resources and therefore confirms the fallacy of believing you can be neutral.

Neutral people don't function in politics. Competing political groups that tangle over limited resources (all politics) won't allow it.

JK
 
Malachi151 said:
And here are my results BTW:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -6.88
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -3.95


Mine:

Economic Left/Right: 0.75
Authoritarian/Libertarian: 0.41

Jean Cretin and Gerhard Schroder are the two people closest to me on the "International Chart".
 
Re: Re: Re: The giant cop out

Malachi151 said:


#2 I think that this country has been filled with free-market capitalist propaganda for 30 years to the point that many people have such a poor grasp of economics today they support "right wing" economic policy out of being mislead and having misconceptions.

IMO anyone that supports the idea of a flat tax or thinks that the free-market is a good idea is simply not educated on economics.

And praytell child, where did you get your economics degree from? Find it inside a crackerjack box?
 
Jedi Knight said:
Come on, this entire thread is a logic fallacy.

What KelvinG is proposing is that it is perfectly acceptable for someone to openly support political issues virtually trademarked by the right or left political wings and then claim "political neutrality".

Interesting, Jedi. You misrepresented what KevinG was saying and then you went about attacking the misrepresentation. There should be a name for that…let me think…
 
If you support leftist policies, you are a leftist. If you support rightist policies you are a rightist. There is no grey area in any political ideology.

It comes down to issues. As has been demonstrated in this very thread, one can have "leftist" leanings for one issue and "rightist" leanings for another. Keep your baggage.

Again, it is not as black and white as you want to make it to suit your world view. A racist lumps people into a label so he can close his mind to their humanity.

Neutral people don't function in politics. Competing political groups that tangle over limited resources (all politics) won't allow it.

People compromise to attept to get resources all the time. That is politics. In order to compromise, you have to meet someone half-way, more or less.
 
enParties.gif


Yep, I fit squarely with the Greens, and as this shows the Democrats are not leftists in America.

This is also interesing, though a bit trivial:

http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/iconochasms.html
 
no one in particular said:
Interesting, Jedi. You misrepresented what KevinG was saying and then you went about attacking the misrepresentation. There should be a name for that…let me think…

It's called "New Republican Logic". JK is hardly the only one responsible for that.
 

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