• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The giant cop out

KelvinG

Master Poster
KelvinG
Joined
Sep 8, 2001
Messages
2,387
It seems to be very popular to rail against the evil "left" on this board. (the evil "right" gets its fair share of abuse as well.)

Personally, I'm getting a little sick of this giant cop out.

It's so easy to counter an argument by resorting to the safe tactic of blaming a faceless group such as the "left" or the "right." (and I'm not saying I haven't done it as well. I certainly have)

Isn't such blame assignment just an easy way to feel superior in an argument.

If you believe that someone has said something that is wrong, or fallacious, or just plain stupid, then say so.
Don't dismiss it as "left" or "right" wing propoganda, and turn up your nose in an act of arrogant wisdom.

And who are these radical "lefties" or "righties" anyways? I'm willing to bet most people on this board have belief systems comprised of both left and right values. Some lean more to the right, some more to the left.
But is anyone here totally "left" wing or totally "right" wing?

Personally, I think such labelling is cowardly and really just an attempt to avoid a real debate.
 
That's exactly the kind of claptrap I'd expect to hear from a partisan wingnut like you ;)

Seriously, it's nothing more than namecalling and an attempt to stir up trouble. When people resort to namecalling and mudslinging, they've clearly run out of cogent arguments. Or perhaps never had any to begin with.
 
Re: The giant cop....out?

Oh, I thought this thread was going to be about an 8 foot cop who came to terms with his sexuality.





Anyway, the “evil right” already had it’s thread. I would contend, however, that we have very few extreme righties in this board. Most (no, not JK) of our right wingish folks have many views that identify with the left, abortion, gay rights and such.

Do any of out left wingish folks share righty views? Maybe, anti gun control or whatever?

Good topic by the way, KevinG.
 
I don't think it's as simple as mudslinging, Attrayant.

I think KelvinG is onto the root of the labelling issue.

Labels make it easier for someone who might not want to think very critically about an issue or another person's ideas.

The faster someon can apply a label to another, the faster that person can be dismissed and the labeller's world view safe from impeachment.

You can see how quickly some are to label, even in this forum where critical thinking is supposed to be the norm.

A good example is the Hamas thread(s). At even the slightest attempt to understand Hamas, one is labelled a terrorist or an anti-semite.

It makes it easy to know who to drag out into the streets when the glass breaks.

I recommend that any here who wishes to engage in open-minded discussions, refrain from labelling (leftist, right-wing, sympathizer) and stick to the ideas of the discussions.
 
I agree totally! Labeling is a bad thing to do to anyone at anytime and does not help in a debate. More people just need to stick to the issues at hand and the data that is available. Lumping anything into a catagory is just a bad attempt at dismissal without evidence.

I could go off on a personal rant right about now but I will shut up instead of coming off as a radical :P

-Joxter-
 
Re: Re: The giant cop....out?

Anyway, the “evil right” already had it’s thread. I would contend, however, that we have very few extreme righties in this board. Most (no, not JK) of our right wingish folks have many views that identify with the left, abortion, gay rights and such.

Do any of out left wingish folks share righty views? Maybe, anti gun control or whatever?

Good topic by the way, KevinG. [/B]
Click to expand...


Yes, good idea. Maybe we should challenge all of the so called "righties" and "lefties" to share some of their views that go against what is typically considered normal right or left wing thought.

One that comes to mind for me relates to a issue that is pertinent in my home province right now.
Privatization of health care. I'm still a big believer in accesible health care for all, but I have a big problem when the government says that you can't take advantage of private services in order to avoid waiting lists in the public health sector.
If I have the money to pay for private services be damned if the government is going to tell me I can't do so.

This is but one example on my part.

My intent here is not to turn this thread into a debate on health care, but to cite an example where I'm more "right" wing than "left."
 
Maybe a new thread is in order: What views do you have that go against your stereotypical party affilitaion? I am socially liberal, but fiscally conservative. I'm not sure what that makes me.
 
Re: Re: The giant cop....out?

no one in particular said:
Oh, I thought this thread was going to be about an 8 foot cop who came to terms with his sexuality.
Click to expand...
Didn't I just see that episode of Everybody Loves Raymond?


I think that the right-left labels don't work here very well because people who use a little critical thinking in their lives often aproach issues of personal liberty and economic freedom differently, and sometimes reach conclusions regarding specific issues that don't really lend themselves to being lumped into large, homogenous groups.

If this were a more partisan issues based forum, I would think that people who had devient views on specific issues might be inclined to try to mold their views closer to the norm, as peer pressure, for example, might make a good anti-abortion evangelical Christian think they should be all for a free market, even though the issues are unrelated. Here, you're free to think just about anything on any issue, and no one is likely to say that you're being intellectually inconsistant because you want free trade and free abortions.
 
Attrayant,

It makes you a critical thinker. There are some who join a political party like a cult and follow the beating drum across the board.

Politicians especially know they must compromise to get things done in a democracy.
 
Who are the hardcore lefties? I cant think of any. Maybe I'm missing them cause I lean left on more issues.
 
KelvinG said:
It seems to be very popular to rail against the evil "left" on this board. (the evil "right" gets its fair share of abuse as well.)

Personally, I'm getting a little sick of this giant cop out.

It's so easy to counter an argument by resorting to the safe tactic of blaming a faceless group such as the "left" or the "right." (and I'm not saying I haven't done it as well. I certainly have)

Isn't such blame assignment just an easy way to feel superior in an argument.

If you believe that someone has said something that is wrong, or fallacious, or just plain stupid, then say so.
Don't dismiss it as "left" or "right" wing propoganda, and turn up your nose in an act of arrogant wisdom.

And who are these radical "lefties" or "righties" anyways? I'm willing to bet most people on this board have belief systems comprised of both left and right values. Some lean more to the right, some more to the left.
But is anyone here totally "left" wing or totally "right" wing?

Personally, I think such labelling is cowardly and really just an attempt to avoid a real debate.
Click to expand...

Of course it is, but people learn from our leaders. We have been watching politicans do this for at least 50 years in America.

There is a really a lot of history in all this, going back to the Red Scare of 1920.

"The left" has been something that has been attacked by people with opposing view who have self serving agenda in America since the 1920s, its become a part of the social fabric. Generartions have grown up now hearing about "the liberal media", "Commie pinko fags", etc. There is a real effort that has taken place for the past 80 years to defame a set of ideas that are pro-community and seen to at the expense of personal exploitation.

This all goes back to defending wealth and the ability for individuals to exploit others. The people who are wealthy and feel this way have an interest in maintaining status quo. They don't have real logical and factual arguments so over the years they have resorted to lying, name calling, attacking strawmen, stereotyping, etc.

http://faculty.washington.edu/gregoryj/cpproject/curwick.htm

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/ALLEN/ch3.html

What happened was that there was a growing liberal movement in America in the early part of the 20th century. There were people in America opposed to it, but they had little to back up their views, adn were getting steam rolled by liberal rationalists and Marxsits.

Then the Bolshevik Revolution happened in Russia. At that time America had one of the highest numbers of Commusnits in the world actually, there were more Communists in America than Russia in 1918.

When the Bolshevik Revolution happened there were real people in America that wanted to overthrow the American government and basically have a Communist Revolution in America. This was only a handfull of people though. The conservatives though exploited this and labled everything liberal as a part of Communist conspiracy and htats when this all began.

During poltical campaigns in in newspaper conservatives would call anything liberal un-American, or part of a Russian plot to take over America. It didn't even matter if the ideas in question were realted to Communism or not, they simply played the card and fed on hysteria.

That has now been going on since that time. It came up again most strongly after WWII, and ever since then liberal ideas have been associated whit a foreign threat by conservatives who exploited the situation for their own benefit and to aviod from havin to anwser question about policies or ideas. Instead fo addressing an idea, they simply labled it Communist and stygmatized it, it was an easy way to win elections.

This has greatly hurt liberlaism in Ameirica over these past 80 years.

These attitudes are not a part of our culture and most people don't really knw where his all came from.
 
Okay, I'll out myself first.:eek:

I proudly call myself a liberal.
I believe in social programs, affirmative action, graduated taxes, gun control, pro-choice, non-aggression, racial harmony, feminism (some of it), and that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. My left wing hero is Kurt Vonnegut. My left wing idiot is Al Sharpton.

On the other hand, I also believe in the death penalty (where judiciously applied), eliminating lawsuit abuse, cracking down on welfare abusers, a strong military, that PETA is a bunch of nutcases, and in many forms of capitalism. My right-wing hero is Colin Powell. My right wing idiot is Ann Coulter.

Also I love NASCAR, if that says anything about my personality.:D
 
Part of my difficulty with this issue is separating flames from the ad hominem fallacy. If you say 'tedly is a fool' that's a statement that is provably true, if rude. If you say 'tedly is spouting fascist propaganda, therefore what he says must be (false | true) ' your argument is fallacious.

'Leftist' and 'rightist ' labels as used in the US of A strike me as somewhat odd. A morning talk show host in Canada (Peter Gzowski, founder of the Gzowski golf tournament in support of Literacy) pointed out that in Canada there is not a party far enough to the right to oppose Medicare, and in the US there is not a party far enough to the left to support gun control.

Here is an interesting take on the point from 'The Doubter's Companion' by John Ralston Saul, the best bathroom book since Bierce's 'the Devil's Dictionary' and also arranged as 'A Dictionary of Aggresive Common Sense.'

Left versus Right
The result of an unfortunate seating arrangement.
In October 1789 the Paris mob, led by women, walked to Versailles, stormed the palace and dragged the king back to town with them. The Assembly had no choice but to follow. Louis was put in his gilded cage, the Tuileries Palace. The nearest building capable of seating several hundred elected representatives in the same room was the palace stables out in what are now the Tuileries gardens. The need to board and excercise a large number of horses had imposed a particular sort of structure. That shape in turn imposed a semi-circular seating plan on the carpenters brought in to do the emergency conversion.
It naturally followed that those who hated each other most sat as far away as possible from each other, to the extreme right and left of the podium. Thus the needs of horses helped to create our idea of irreconcilable political opposites. Had architecture permitted this semi-circle to complete itself, the reactionaries and the revolutionaries would have found themselves quite naturally sitting together. See NEO-CONSERVATIVE.
p.s.
In the Neo-conservative entry he starts 'The exact opposite of a conservative. Neo Conservatives are the Bolsheviks of the Right.' Then he gets inflammatory.
Edited to correct spelling of His Excellecy's name.
 
My right-wing hero is Colin Powell.

Is Powell even right wing? He served under Clinon too, and is pro-affirmative action and I think pro-choice also. I don't know about the rist of his views, except he lies like the rest to support war:p I'm under impressed with Powell, he just looks good in uniform and is a good speaker.

I have no "right wing" heros. I think most people on "the right" side are either confused, mislead, or malicious.

My problem with the left is that much of the left is also confused, and mislead, but not malicious.

To quote you but change it a little I would say:

I believe in social programs, affirmative action, graduated taxes, gun "control" (not removale of the right to bare arms), pro-choice, non-aggression, racial harmony, feminism (some of it), am against the free-market, want all recreational drugs legalized, that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, and I strongly support increased secularization and would like to see all references to God removed from government property and whatnot, like money, the pledge, etc.,

On the other hand, I also believe in the death penalty (I would like to see the death penalty used more often and with quicker turn around), eliminating lawsuit abuse, cracking down on welfare abusers (I think that this is a non issue in terms of poor welfare, of course we want a system that is not abused, to suggest that anyone is for abuse makes no sense. The most welfare abuse is corporate welfare), a strong military (but would still decrease military spending compared to now), and in regulated capitalism.
 
Re: Re: The giant cop out

no one in particular said:
Click to expand...

My question about who exactly are the radical "lefties" and "righties" on this board was asked because these terms are so frequently used that I wanted to see if anyone would step forward and say "I am one the righties or lefties of which are much maligned on this board."

I still find such labelling as silly and ultimately a cop out.
Is it really fair to classify anyone on this board as totally "left" or totally "right."
Again, it's just a convienient method to try and degrade someone's position by resorting to a form of name calling.

Personally, I'm not going to do it anymore. And if someone's argument consists of "Ah, just what the left (or right) would say" then they obviously aren't equipped for a serious debate.
 
Attrayant said:
Seriously, it's nothing more than namecalling and an attempt to stir up trouble.
Click to expand...

Sometimes it's mocking the other side's illucid debating techniques, too.

My take, though, is that presently, the right is way overboard with utterly unethical propaganda, and the left can't work its way out of whiny. Well, then there's JC, but he's a special case. :)

Speaking as one of those moderate rightists mentioned below, who is anti-gun-control and pro-human-rights (that includes the right to control one's own body, thank you), yes, I'm more than somewhat profoundly sick of both.
 
There are no radical lefties. Can anyone point to a Bizzaro JK??? We can always count on a "Its the feminazi's causing all these overcast days." From Jedi and a couple others. But I cant recall comparable kookieness from the left.

Maybe I can start......... ITS RAINING TODAY, ITS ALL REAGANS FAULT.
 
Attrayant said:
Maybe a new thread is in order: What views do you have that go against your stereotypical party affilitaion? I am socially liberal, but fiscally conservative. I'm not sure what that makes me.
Click to expand...

You're a Goldwater republican, then. But we need a lot more of you, and a politician to front for us, since Barry is dead.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom