Grassy Knowlington
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The Freeman Movement and England
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I'd rather take legal advice from an inebriated 'know it all' the a fully 'compo mentis' FMOTL
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
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Very true. I used to hang out with some folks who made pronouncements on "what was legal", and it was amazing how often that just happened to coincide with what the police were trying to stop them from doing that particular evening.
I remember one party where one guy went down to the YMCA to use the payphone, and when he got back, he was all pissed off, because the YMCA was locked for the evening, and the night watchman wouldn't let him in to use the phone. He kept insisting that "A payphone is a public phone, and they have to let you use it!", even after the watchman called the cops on him, for banging on the door and screaming obscenities for 20 minutes trying to get in to use the phone.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
Mind you, that sounds like a good way to persuade the police to inform you that you have the right to make one phone call...
Dave
I always suspected that Village People were out & out liars & this anecdote confirms it. It's NOT fun to stay at the YMCA, you can't hang out with all the boys & you can't even use the flipping phone.
jargon buster
Banned
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All caps
I spoke to a solicitor today and whilst we both laughed at the freeman concept we discussed the ALL CAPS theory.
She simply said that in days of old when everything was hand written names were always written in block capitals to distinguish them from the rest of the written words.
Its simply a tradition that has carried on now things are typed, no secret plan, no hidden agenda.
Mind you when I asked her about the stage in her training when she was "let in" on the scam and she just laughed.
She never said she hadn't though???
I spoke to a solicitor today and whilst we both laughed at the freeman concept we discussed the ALL CAPS theory.
She simply said that in days of old when everything was hand written names were always written in block capitals to distinguish them from the rest of the written words.
Its simply a tradition that has carried on now things are typed, no secret plan, no hidden agenda.
Mind you when I asked her about the stage in her training when she was "let in" on the scam and she just laughed.
She never said she hadn't though???
I spoke to a solicitor today and whilst we both laughed at the freeman concept we discussed the ALL CAPS theory.
She simply said that in days of old when everything was hand written names were always written in block capitals to distinguish them from the rest of the written words.
Its simply a tradition that has carried on now things are typed, no secret plan, no hidden agenda.
Mind you when I asked her about the stage in her training when she was "let in" on the scam and she just laughed.She never said she hadn't though???
Formal legal educational / vocational training takes 3 / 4 years in England & Wales & having endured it myself I can't recall being hypnotised & having a chip inserted in my noggin (then again would I?
)UCADIA'n 'Professor' Yozhik says entry level lawyers are 'programmed' (subliminally I suppose
) & therefore 'comply'. I'd agree that a 20 hour course in European Law is likely to induce halucinations but I can't believe that the 8000 / 9000 people who complete legal education in England & Wales per annum are to a man & woman hardwired to give 'it' to the 'man'!Surely there'd be a few 100 escapee's? Alas no, Law is like Accountancy or Medicine - 90% of the time a squalid, boring business & everyone just gets on with it. The FMOTL hostility to the legal profession is quite insane. For almost every instance of a case where the 'little' fella' is taking on the 'man' there is a 'lawyer' right beside him. I know of a Barrister Chambers where they only represent defendants in crimal cases, tenants in housing law issues, parents in public childrens act cases & applicants in Judical Review cases. These people have been far more successful in preserving civil liberties & giving government agencies a bloody nose (when the need arises) than any FMOTL 'guru' (Menard, St Clair, 'Arris, Chapman etc). Even in my hundrum, slightly squalid practice I'm willing to wager considerable sums that I've achieved more practical, positive outcomes for my clients than the combined efforts of the above mention FMOTL 'chieftans'
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A quasi religious movement?
For some time I've been grappling with why do they do it? The hopeless attempts at Court litigation, the dispatch of meaningless NOUICOR's & sundry documents to the powers that be, the pointless contests with minor officials & utility companies. Any logical person would recognise that FMOTL practices derive absolutely no benefit to their practitioners & move on to something else but yet we see Freemen persistently butting their heads against the disinterested concrete edifice of everyday society.
The thought occured to me that FMOTL is analogous with religion. You have doctrine, a conspiracy, a priesthood (the ubiquitous 'guru'), sects (the 'canadian school', UCADIA etc), ritual, adherents & martyrs (the ones who get imprisoned or evicted). With all religions you need to suspend your disbelief & exercise 'faith'. Faith is something that FMOTL believers have in spades. After every defeat they come back for more believing that one last effort will unlock the door to a utopian FMOTL heaven on earth.
Aside from the silliness there is a much more sinister side to the FMOTL movement namely they're extremely intolerent of 'non believers' who are routinely described as 'sheeple' or the 'pay and obey' crowd. They really hate the legal profession, the judiciary, law enforcement & civil servants. A this point it's worth re reading John Harris' totalitarian vision:-
http://www.tpuc.org/content/what-country-needs-benign-dictator-–-‘true
With all due repect there is nothing benign about this 'modest proposal'. Harris wants to put 100,000's into detention, confiscate their property & humiliate them by compelling them to redeem themselves with public works. To be fair Harris has since slightly retreated from this odious stance. He's now generously decided to offer an amnesty to most of those who he deems to be worthy of punishment. At the time most FMOTL 'believers' dismissed the 'benign dictator' idea but many of them are of the view that certain people should be punished once a FMOTL paradise has been established - there is constant talk of a reckoning & hangings from lamp posts. This kind of blinkered, rigid intolerence reminds me of hard core islamists or the more rabid christian groupings.
For some time I've been grappling with why do they do it? The hopeless attempts at Court litigation, the dispatch of meaningless NOUICOR's & sundry documents to the powers that be, the pointless contests with minor officials & utility companies. Any logical person would recognise that FMOTL practices derive absolutely no benefit to their practitioners & move on to something else but yet we see Freemen persistently butting their heads against the disinterested concrete edifice of everyday society.
The thought occured to me that FMOTL is analogous with religion. You have doctrine, a conspiracy, a priesthood (the ubiquitous 'guru'), sects (the 'canadian school', UCADIA etc), ritual, adherents & martyrs (the ones who get imprisoned or evicted). With all religions you need to suspend your disbelief & exercise 'faith'. Faith is something that FMOTL believers have in spades. After every defeat they come back for more believing that one last effort will unlock the door to a utopian FMOTL heaven on earth.
Aside from the silliness there is a much more sinister side to the FMOTL movement namely they're extremely intolerent of 'non believers' who are routinely described as 'sheeple' or the 'pay and obey' crowd. They really hate the legal profession, the judiciary, law enforcement & civil servants. A this point it's worth re reading John Harris' totalitarian vision:-
http://www.tpuc.org/content/what-country-needs-benign-dictator-–-‘true
With all due repect there is nothing benign about this 'modest proposal'. Harris wants to put 100,000's into detention, confiscate their property & humiliate them by compelling them to redeem themselves with public works. To be fair Harris has since slightly retreated from this odious stance. He's now generously decided to offer an amnesty to most of those who he deems to be worthy of punishment. At the time most FMOTL 'believers' dismissed the 'benign dictator' idea but many of them are of the view that certain people should be punished once a FMOTL paradise has been established - there is constant talk of a reckoning & hangings from lamp posts. This kind of blinkered, rigid intolerence reminds me of hard core islamists or the more rabid christian groupings.
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ComfySlippers
Banned
Why do they do it?
Exactly. This guy could have filled the whole bloody census form in within the time it took for the above pointless waste of time.
solzhenitsyn
Thinker
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Well said gtm. FMOTL does provide a sort of "creation myth" (absurd Cestui Que Vie Act interpretations, imposition of Admiralty law, etc.) which seeks to explain the origins and workings of a complex modern legal-political world to people perhaps poorly equipped to understand on their own (much in the same way religious creation myths explained a complex physical world before the growth in knowledge of the physical world in the last few centuries). Although frankly the whole "God created earth in seven days" story is more credible than the freeman creation story.
ComfySlippers
Banned
A quasi religious movement?
You have, of course, described FOTLers down to a tee in your analysis gtm.
They are no different to any other Cult-Like/Paranoid/Conspiracy group who believe that the world is secretly out to get them, but only they can see the secret.
Whilst the internet and WWW have transformed the world for, in my belief, the better they have also created a monster. It now only takes five minutes for a deluded individual to graduate from The University of YouTube and be an expert in all matters, especially the ones we sheeple can not see.
"A Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America (Comparative Studies in Religion and Society)" by Michael Barkun is an interesting read.
With regard to having sinister overtones; Yes. Any group who follows a guru and who's ultimate goal is to ignore the rules of society and have their own little piece of communal FOTL-Land... well, we all know how that ends. I'm not comparing Menard to Manson, Jones or Hubbard but you get the picture.
I've probably gone OT a bit, but as I can find no "general" discussion of this topic which the FOTLs just happen to fit into please feel free to spank me with a kipper for my waffling.
ETA: I can not find the original post here on JREF which adds another point of view re why people "Do a Menard"
ie: "I have done something bad. I have been found out. To sleep at night I must blame the authorities and not myself"
You have, of course, described FOTLers down to a tee in your analysis gtm.
They are no different to any other Cult-Like/Paranoid/Conspiracy group who believe that the world is secretly out to get them, but only they can see the secret.
Whilst the internet and WWW have transformed the world for, in my belief, the better they have also created a monster. It now only takes five minutes for a deluded individual to graduate from The University of YouTube and be an expert in all matters, especially the ones we sheeple can not see.
"A Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America (Comparative Studies in Religion and Society)" by Michael Barkun is an interesting read.
With regard to having sinister overtones; Yes. Any group who follows a guru and who's ultimate goal is to ignore the rules of society and have their own little piece of communal FOTL-Land... well, we all know how that ends. I'm not comparing Menard to Manson, Jones or Hubbard but you get the picture.
I've probably gone OT a bit, but as I can find no "general" discussion of this topic which the FOTLs just happen to fit into please feel free to spank me with a kipper for my waffling.
ETA: I can not find the original post here on JREF which adds another point of view re why people "Do a Menard"
ie: "I have done something bad. I have been found out. To sleep at night I must blame the authorities and not myself"
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"Bad" according to whom?
All people, or maybe just 30% of the people, or maybe just government employees / franchisees??
- Is freedom of religion bad? Must there not be differing morals w/ such a system of different principals, in regards to smoking some bud, for example?
- Must people ask to carry a weapon on them to defend themselves and those around them, or do they have that natural right to protect themselves??
Is this not why Common Law comes into existence... because "my rights extend to where another man's nose begins"?? Do they not?
No man can tell me what to do, for I am not a slave. If I harm no one, by what authority is he acting? Acting under Color of Law or Color of Office to violate someone's right is going to end that officer in federal pen for several years.
No man can tell me what to do, for I am not an animal... God only gave men dominion over animals. A Child of God came down from Heaven and even told us that we are to look to NO MAN on Earth, no pharisees, no scribes, no men whatsoever. The line goes... "Why do you call me Good? There is only One that is Good."
He actually gave that same message over and over in various ways --> "Go straight to the source".
If Christians do not believe this, then they are not Christian. That is the right of someone to remain secular. But my right to believe that I am free to the extent I can do what I want provided I don't infringe on the rights of others... starts with my Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Association, Freedom of Assembly, Freedom to Speak, Freedom to Remain Silent, Freedom to change my Name, Freedom to Build an Automobile and Travel in it, etc.
Our freedoms are limitless as long as you follow the Ten Commandments, always keep looking to God for your daily Bread... and making sure to always read the Fine Print, of course. Your right to contract is one of your greatest, as well. Aren't they ALL great??
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Mojo
Mostly harmless
What has FOTL got to do with freedom of religion? It actually implies imposing a particular (Christian) God, from which it is claimed that the mythical FOTL "Common Law" originates.
What about religions that don't include the same ten commandments? That have different "God-given" rules and prohibitions?
Grassy Knowlington
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If your rights extend to my nose, then my rights extend to your nose. The space in between is subject to whose rights?
Sceptic-PK
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Common law is the law that judges create when they make decisions and form precedent. Your use of it here is incorrect. The Freeman's references to it are pure fantasy.
So, your answer is no. Common law has nothing to do with anything you've said.
Quite so & I'd also add the development of common law was also to do with the creation of uniformity of law across England.
I suspect freemen are referring to 'Natural Law' when they cite 'Common Law'. They believe that 'Common Law' (Their definition not mine) is eternal & immutable. There is an obvious comparison between FMOTL 'jurisprudence' (a word I don't like applying to the chaotic drivel they produce
) & totalitarian legal models. As far as they are concerned these 'eternal laws' take precedence over anything else that came afterwards. This allows then to argue the rule of law should be overriden in the application of these 'eternal laws'. The elephant in the room is that in an increasingly secular society most people are not going to be enthused by 'god given' laws.
Grassy Knowlington
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Quite so & I'd also add the development of common law was also to do with the creation of uniformity of law across England.
I suspect freemen are referring to 'Natural Law' when they cite 'Common Law'. They believe that 'Common Law' (Their definition not mine) is eternal & immutable. There is an obvious comparison between FMOTL 'jurisprudence' (a word I don't like applying to the chaotic drivel they produce
At the risk of diverting the thread what connection, if any, is there between claims to 'Common Law' as interpreted by FMOTL and the Magna Carta that is often quoted or referenced by FMOTL?
I think you're mangling the saying, "your right to swing your fist ends at my nose", which isn't quite the same thing as it's more about freedom of expression, and is not about Common Law.
So FOTL is based on a belief in god? Got any evidence for the existence of god, because without that, 'god given rights' don't actually amount to much?
Which ten commandments, specifically?
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