The Freeman Movement and England

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^ Incidentally, the reasoning in that decision raises an important point: if freemen magically got their wish and are in fact not persons, then they do not have any of the rights granted to persons by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and strictly speaking, the government can do whatever it likes to them. Its a bit ironic, no?
 
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^ Incidentally, the reasoning in that decision raises an important point: if freemen magically got their wish and are in fact not persons, then they do not have any of the rights granted to persons by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and strictly speaking, the government can do whatever it likes to them. Its a bit ironic, no?
I've tried that line of reasoning on them lots of times. It never works. No surprise there. Bringing up the persons case (Edwards v. Canada) tends to shut them up, though. The Canadian ones, at least. I don't recall ever even getting a response to that.

I tip my hat to the statues of the Famous Five on Parliament Hill every time I walk by, both for their historical struggle and for the chuckles I get when I think about poo-flinging FOTL monkeys.

http://www.abheritage.ca/famous5/achievements/persons_case.html
 
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^ Not to mention the Criminal Code implications. It only prohibits killing human beings.

EDIT: Just to agree completely with you with respect to the famous five (whose statues also stand in downtown Calgary). Indeed, I get deeply offended by the freemen when they call themselves slaves or compare themselves to the Egyptians in Tahir Square. etc. They have no idea that they are the most privileged, most fortunate people on earth. I can only presume that they have never left the "prisons" of Canada or the US or Europe to see how most people in the world live.
 
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^ Not to mention the Criminal Code implications. It only prohibits killing human beings.
Uh oh. We've already learned from our resident legal scholar that "human being" means "monster". So why does the CC prohibit killing monsters? Could it be the law society protecting its own? The rabbit hole goes even deeper than I thought!

EDIT: Just to agree completely with you with respect to the famous five (whose statues also stand in downtown Calgary). Indeed, I get deeply offended by the freemen when they call themselves slaves or compare themselves to the Egyptians in Tahir Square. etc. They have no idea that they are the most privileged, most fortunate people on earth. I can only presume that they have never left the "prisons" of Canada or the US or Europe to see how most people in the world live.
Amen.
 
^ Incidentally, the reasoning in that decision raises an important point: if freemen magically got their wish and are in fact not persons, then they do not have any of the rights granted to persons by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and strictly speaking, the government can do whatever it likes to them. Its a bit ironic, no?


Indeed. This is just another example of the illogic that permeates just about everything they come up with and demonstrates that what they're really engaging in is simply 'magical' thinking.

I tip my hat to the statues of the Famous Five on Parliament Hill every time I walk by, both for their historical struggle and for the chuckles I get when I think about poo-flinging FOTL monkeys.

http://www.abheritage.ca/famous5/achievements/persons_case.html


I wholeheartedly agree.
 
I'm a little over my head with the persons things.

So if I may ask grndslm some specific questions:

1) The U.S. Constitution says that the number of persons in a state determines the number of representatives that states sends to the House of Representatives. Why are incorporated businesses and incorporated townships not counted in the decennial census?

2) If a Freeman were accused of a specific crime, say grand theft, and was found innocent by a jury of his peers, is there any reason that the courts could not try him again for the same crime? The double jeopardy clause in the Fifth Amendment says that only persons are exempt from being tried more than once for the same crime.

3) Do you subscribe to the position that there are birth bonds in the U.S.? Or in other countries?

4) Can Freemen claim the money associated with these birth bonds? Do you know of cases where people have actually acquired the money?
 
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I'm a little over my head with the persons things.

So if I may ask grndslm some specific questions:

1) The U.S. Constitution says that the number of persons in a state determines the number of representatives that states sends to the House of Representatives. Why are incorporated businesses and incorporated townships not counted in the decennial census?
Persons are those who [are presumed to have] asked for representation. A Freeman is not represented, because he does not give mutual consent to the representation... therefore, he cannot possibly be considered a Person. How could he if he's a true Freeman that has rescinded his SSN, B.C., Drivers license, etc.??

2) If a Freeman were accused of a specific crime, say grand theft, and was found innocent by a jury of his peers, is there any reason that the courts could not try him again for the same crime? The double jeopardy clause in the Fifth Amendment says that only persons are exempt from being tried more than once for the same crime.
To the best of my knowledge, a jury trial is one and done, unless it's a hung jury... and then the prosecutor would have to start all over, and very likely wouldn't be worth his time for most cases. But if the defendant is found guilty or not guilty, he cannot appeal it AFAIK.

3) Do you subscribe to the position that there are birth bonds in the U.S.? Or in other countries?
I do. Only because the Certificates are "American BankNotes". That much I know.

I also know that that's the only logical way that the Federal Reserve can print money at the rate that it does. People have told me that the Federal Reserve Act is the place you'll find the answer to how you're a slave. I haven't found it... but it was probly some metaphorical explanation??

I'm honestly not too big into the money bit yet, because I don't have any and don't care about it. But I know I should know more about it, so gimme some time.

I do know that how money is created is based on a growing economy.. the economy grows when children are born and when loans are initiated. Hard to explain, but I know that birth certs *are* bonds. Why not get them printed by somebody who isn't American BankNote?? How else is the money supposed to grow? Strictly from loans? Yea right.

What causes inflation? A growing economy. The idea is to add more money in direct proportion to the growth of the labor force.

4) Can Freemen claim the money associated with these birth bonds? Do you know of cases where people have actually acquired the money?
To me, the stance seems illogical. I have not heard of one case where anyone has succeeded in doing this, tho I have seen a "guide" to how "master the UCC". I'm not willing to test it out myself.

Just posted it... http://freemen.freeforums.org/mastering-the-ucc-t145.html
 
Like beating slaves?
I'll bet you 100 Federal Reserve Notes that you cannot provide us with a verse of Christ Jesus speaking about beating slaves.

Ah, so you have memorized every word of every statute of the entirety of whatever country it is you live in?
Hmm... Noooooo.. but I've seen a lot of them. Any ones I saw that say "human beings" are some obscure Title that didn't apply to to me to begin with, even if I was a "person".
 
Persons are those who [are presumed to have] asked for representation. A Freeman is not represented, because he does not give mutual consent to the representation... therefore, he cannot possibly be considered a Person. How could he if he's a true Freeman that has rescinded his SSN, B.C., Drivers license, etc.??

To the best of my knowledge, a jury trial is one and done, unless it's a hung jury... and then the prosecutor would have to start all over, and very likely wouldn't be worth his time for most cases. But if the defendant is found guilty or not guilty, he cannot appeal it AFAIK.

I do. Only because the Certificates are "American BankNotes". That much I know.

I also know that that's the only logical way that the Federal Reserve can print money at the rate that it does. People have told me that the Federal Reserve Act is the place you'll find the answer to how you're a slave. I haven't found it... but it was probly some metaphorical explanation??

I'm honestly not too big into the money bit yet, because I don't have any and don't care about it. But I know I should know more about it, so gimme some time.

I do know that how money is created is based on a growing economy.. the economy grows when children are born and when loans are initiated. Hard to explain, but I know that birth certs *are* bonds. Why not get them printed by somebody who isn't American BankNote?? How else is the money supposed to grow? Strictly from loans? Yea right.

What causes inflation? A growing economy. The idea is to add more money in direct proportion to the growth of the labor force.

To me, the stance seems illogical. I have not heard of one case where anyone has succeeded in doing this, tho I have seen a "guide" to how "master the UCC". I'm not willing to test it out myself.

Just posted it... http://freemen.freeforums.org/mastering-the-ucc-t145.html

If you have to search for the evidence you're a slave you're not a slave.
 
To the best of my knowledge, a jury trial is one and done, unless it's a hung jury... and then the prosecutor would have to start all over, and very likely wouldn't be worth his time for most cases. But if the defendant is found guilty or not guilty, he cannot appeal it AFAIK.

If the prosecutor were honest or unbiased, then he might very well hesitate to start all over, but the Founding Fathers were aware that a government might persecute an individual by repeatedly trying him for the same crime. The Fifth Amendment is designed to prevent that. But the amendment applies only to persons. Is there any law preventing a unscrupulous prosecutor from unfairly targeting freemen?

The followup question is did the Founding Fathers have the whole people-are-not-persons-until-incorporated thing in mind when they wrote the Constitution?
 
I think perhaps the greatest irony in the freeman world is that self-proclaimed "freeman on the land" are the slaves. The rest of us who operate in reality are not. But freemen so desperately want there to be a vast conspiracy of enslavement that they become slaves to their own ideology and propaganda, following it even when it very obviously does nothing but put them in a worse position than they were previously.

Who is free and who is the slave:
- The person who recognizes that FOTL is legal mythology and shows up to court with a competent lawyer and gets 40 hours of community service for marijuana possession.
or
- The "freeman on the land" who does all the appropriate freeman legal rituals, files the reams of paper terrorism against the court, and ends up in contempt of court, court fines, and months in jail? No one can dispute this is what happens, there are dozens of examples of this on the David Icke forums or any other "freeman forum."

You scream about slavery and oppression when the only thing that is oppressing you is your own fraudulent ideology.
 
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Well... why on God's green earth... would we need a government, if we all acted like Christ Jesus taught us??

If we all loved the Lord God with all our hearts, all our souls, and all our minds, and loved our neighbors as ourself... then there would be absolutely no need for government "protections". Wouldn't you agree?

Not in the least.

I am willing to concede the point that everyone converts to Christianity AND that everyone agrees on the same denomination and agrees to the same interpretation of the Bible.

1) Let's assume that when arsenic levels reach .020 parts per billion in rivers, fish die. I have a factory and I dump .005 parts per billion of arsenic in the river. I tell myself that such a small amount does not go against Jesus's teachings and I still love all my fellow citizens. Unfortunately, four other factory owners reach the same conclusion and they each dump the same amount of arsenic in the water. The fish downstream die. If there were a government, then there would be a way to fairly regulate pollution.

2) I sign a contract with someone. We disagree about some point. Having a court system in place allows us to quickly settle the issue.

3) Who will decide how the gasoline taxes will be used to build roads? Will we build cheap roads or will there be a standard that we will follow? Where will the road be built. Also, what do you think the price of gasoline will be if all road construction and maintenance is to be paid for through gasoline taxes? How will interstate highways be built?

4) Criminal negligence can still occur if people love one another.




The "protections" that I get from the government are not for my security, but for their job security!!

So you are claiming you derive no benefit from government regulations requiring people to have working headlights on cars driven at night? USDA standards have no effect on the food you purchase? FDA regulations do not ensure that you have safe and effective drugs available when you get sick? FAA regulations do not reduce the risk that an airplane falls on you? The immigration and customs agents do not reduce the risk of a terrorist attack on U.S. soil?
 
If the prosecutor were honest or unbiased, then he might very well hesitate to start all over, but the Founding Fathers were aware that a government might persecute an individual by repeatedly trying him for the same crime. The Fifth Amendment is designed to prevent that. But the amendment applies only to persons. Is there any law preventing a unscrupulous prosecutor from unfairly targeting freemen?
You're right absolutely about the intentions of the Fifth Amendment. ALL the Bill of Rights were intended to protect "the people" from government tyranny. The Articles were things the government COULD do. The Anti-Federalists made a big stir and got the Federalists to agree on a list of things that the government COULD *NOT* do -- the Bill of Rights.

The thing about the Fifth Amendment's use of the term person, however... is that there is a presumption you have gone thru the Arraignment stage. At that point, the prosecutor or clerk will attempt to get you to SIGN something, which is a contract (there's another signature line for the judge to make an ORDER that you absolutely contractually consent to). Whether it's a "Waiver of Arraignment & Entry of Not Guilty Plea".. "Entry of Guilty Plea"... Plea bargain or whatever... they require you to sign something. If ever there is a time you want to see a group of sheeple.. go to an arraignment. Everybody's signing a piece of paper that they don't even realize is a contract. They don't ask questions. They just do it. That's how you know they belong in the society.

I was actually "tricked" into signing a "Waiver of Arraignment & Entry of Not Guilty Plea", because the clerk puts an 'X' by my signature line (totally taking my eyes off the other signature line) and then tells you to pick one of the four options (-indigent & want attorney; -indigent, don't want court-appointed attorney, & waive your right to one at a later time; -not indigent & will find own lawyer; -not indigent & don't want lawyer). It was confusing me greatly that only the indigent man who doesn't want a lawyer is waiving his right to an attorney. I wasn't even sure what indigent actually meant so I asked the clerk. She printed out a definition for me and everything! It says somebody without clothes. I stated, "Everybody in here has clothes and shoes, so this is a loaded question. What does my wealth need to be in order to be above or below indigency status??" I didn't even read the Title of the document!! I was too focused on the multiple choice question and answering it honestly. There was actually a fifth choice that was not available, but it took me quite a while to realize what it was after staring at it. After about 10 minutes, the clerk told me... "You must sign it in order to continue." I should've asked, "What's the punishment if I don't sign?" Or just taken her advice, not signed it and walked away.

There are a thousand things I wanted to do, but I'm glad I didn't and just signed, because I've gotten enough grounding in court process that any future run-ins should be a breeze. I know how to handle arraignments. I know how to file Notices & Motions. I know how to appeal. I could file a writ of habeas corpus if needed. And I know how to handle a ruthless judge at a Motions Hearing -- by objecting to his claims and reasserting my own.

They gain jurisdiction over you by you offering a police officer your legal name, DOB, address of residency, SSN, etc... and then especially by you offering to sign your legal name right next to the DEFENDANT line at the arraignment, too. That's just the start of it. :boxedin:

The followup question is did the Founding Fathers have the whole people-are-not-persons-until-incorporated thing in mind when they wrote the Constitution?
I couldn't possibly know the answer to this question. They definitely knew what Common Law was, tho. They were definitely some of the most moral MEN for a good 50 years or so. I don't think they referred to themselves as "human" all that often, however. They might have spoken generally about the human race... but I have this inclination that they felt men were a spiritual step above humans. If anything, you want to be a man... nothing more , nothing less.

There are many viewpoints on the Constitution. Most would say that you are not a party to the Constitution. One says that the Constitution is a federal compact between the states. Another says that the Constitution is reserved to "We the People and our Posterity"... so most didn't sign the compact, nor are descendants of the Signatory. The things I find most useful are the Spirit and History of the Constitution. It's jampacked with more information than I ever realized just a year or two ago. Most people read it and just skim over words without understanding what is Common Law, "Law and Equity", Admiralty, Maritime, right to assistance of counsel (not an attorney), right to understand the nature and cause of the charges against you BEFORE you plead guilty or not guilty. This is why everybody is waiving their arraignment, because they don't understand... yet they say they do.

You understand... You accept jurisdiction.

I don't understand what they're talking about.
I don't understand the nature and charges presented against me.
How would they even have my name in the first place?? I sure shouldn't be carrying IDENTIFICATION around with me if I'm a Freeman. Wouldn't you agree?
If I did give them my person's legal info... why would I "waive" anything other than the benefit of the whole court process???
 
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I think perhaps the greatest irony in the freeman world is that self-proclaimed "freeman on the land" are the slaves. The rest of us who operate in reality are not. But freemen so desperately want there to be a vast conspiracy of enslavement that they become slaves to their own ideology and propaganda, following it even when it very obviously does nothing but put them in a worse position than they were previously.
It's not a vast conspiracy if a cop impedes the free flow of traffic for an unnecessary roadblock, fudges a time to make it seem like it was later in the day, to make it seem as if you should have had functional tail lights? It's not a vast conspiracy when you run into ANOTHER roadblock 10 minutes later and wait for an additional 5 minutes, yet there's only a 2 minute difference in the times from the two different officers?? It's not a vast conspiracy when these cops and judges OBLIGE to protect the Constitution and your rights... yet throw you in a holding cell for contempt, merely for exercising your rights to free speech and to defend yourself???

I mean, I'm not really sure what your definition of conspiracy is... maybe they're not all EXACLTY in collusion as to every wrongdoing they might partake in... but they do, indeed, know what they are doing is wrong. And I'll be damned if I'm just going to let them run all over me like that.

Who is free and who is the slave:
- The person who recognizes that FOTL is legal mythology and shows up to court with a competent lawyer and gets 40 hours of community service for marijuana possession.
or
- The "freeman on the land" who does all the appropriate freeman legal rituals, files the reams of paper terrorism against the court, and ends up in contempt of court, court fines, and months in jail? No one can dispute this is what happens, there are dozens of examples of this on the David Icke forums or any other "freeman forum."
I'd say that the Freeman is the one who is free, of course. He is handling things on his own affairs. He is being honest with himself and others. He is attempting to share the truth..

Why do you people have a fascination toward weak-mindedness?? And lack of understanding?? Why do you want people to waive their right to ask questions... I truly would like to understand that!

Why should you want anybody to get run over? To accept a plea bargain of community service, so that they have a criminal charge on their record?? WHY?? You have no compassion for your peers? You do not care about anyone but yourself??

If everybody took 40 hours of their time to go sit in the Law Library... society would be far better off than letting people ignorantly waive rights and get steamrolled. Most people don't even fulfill the whole 40 hours... you know this, right??

You scream about slavery and oppression when the only thing that is oppressing you is your own fraudulent ideology.
Christ Jesus is an Anarchist!! I will follow Him until the End.

What's fraudulent is people pledging oaths to protect the rights of indidual peoples/persons/mans/men/whatever.. and then pushing that oath to the back of their minds, hoping they won't go visit that Law Library... and realize that their RIGHTS WERE VIOLATED, THEY WERE ILLEGALLY DETAINED, UNLAWFULLY ARRESTED, ETC.


Things must just be peachy keen in the UK, but the government here is my enemy. And, what a coincidence.. it was Christ Jesus' too. And if you only knew how much I smiled and were respectful to cops, but it doesn't matter. Harassed for stealing things, simply because I'm walking down a street with NOTHING in hand. Or harassed for riding a bicycle, because I could've stole it. I have a ton of stories to share about the FRAUDULENT ACTIONS OF GOVERNMENT AGENTS, and only ONE good story about cops recovering a friend's stolen goods at a pawn shop.... but you probly wouldn't believe me... so why bother??
 
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You're right absolutely about the intentions of the Fifth Amendment. ALL the Bill of Rights were intended to protect "the people" from government tyranny. The Articles were things the government COULD do. The Anti-Federalists made a big stir and got the Federalists to agree on a list of things that the government COULD *NOT* do -- the Bill of Rights.

Then if you stick to the mythological freeman definition that "person" means only "a corporation," then you can be tried for the same crime over and over again. Of course in reality "person" usually means "natural person" so that would never happen, but were you being consistent with yourself you'd see that you just debunked yourself.

The thing about the Fifth Amendment's use of the term person, however... is that there is a presumption you have gone thru the Arraignment stage. At that point, the prosecutor or clerk will attempt to get you to SIGN something, which is a contract (there's another signature line for the judge to make an ORDER that you absolutely contractually consent to). Whether it's a "Waiver of Arraignment & Entry of Not Guilty Plea".. "Entry of Guilty Plea"... Plea bargain or whatever... they require you to sign something. If ever there is a time you want to see a group of sheeple.. go to an arraignment. Everybody's signing a piece of paper that they don't even realize is a contract. They don't ask questions. They just do it. That's how you know they belong in the society.

Nope, wrong again. There is no "contract" in this case - its simply a form used to speed up the process. You can choose to not fill it out at all and enter a choice verbally for the record, or the court will enter a not guilty plea for you if you try your freeman antics. You can refuse to sign it all day long and it won't matter a bit. Most people do it because they operate in reality and realize that its just a form.

I was actually "tricked" into signing a "Waiver of Arraignment & Entry of Not Guilty Plea", because the clerk puts an 'X' by my signature line (totally taking my eyes off the other signature line) and then tells you to pick one of the four options (-indigent & want attorney; -indigent, don't want court-appointed attorney, & waive your right to one at a later time; -not indigent & will find own lawyer; -not indigent & don't want lawyer). It was confusing me greatly that only the indigent man who doesn't want a lawyer is waiving his right to an attorney. I wasn't even sure what indigent actually meant so I asked the clerk. She printed out a definition for me and everything! It says somebody without clothes. I stated, "Everybody in here has clothes and shoes, so this is a loaded question. What does my wealth need to be in order to be above or below indigency status??" I didn't even read the Title of the document!! I was too focused on the multiple choice question and answering it honestly. There was actually a fifth choice that was not available, but it took me quite a while to realize what it was after staring at it. After about 10 minutes, the clerk told me... "You must sign it in order to continue." I should've asked, "What's the punishment if I don't sign?" Or just taken her advice, not signed it and walked away.

And how exactly were you tricked here? You choose not to read the document. You could have chosen not to sign it and agian, nothing would have changed.

There are a thousand things I wanted to do, but I'm glad I didn't and just signed, because I've gotten enough grounding in court process that any future run-ins should be a breeze. I know how to handle arraignments. I know how to file Notices & Motions. I know how to appeal. I could file a writ of habeas corpus if needed. And I know how to handle a ruthless judge at a Motions Hearing -- by objecting to his claims and reasserting my own.

Actually any future run-ins - and your likely to have them if you practice freeman mythology since it has no basis in real law - are more than likely to end you up in contempt of court or in jail over things that normally wouldn't put one in jail.

They gain jurisdiction over you by you offering a police officer your legal name, DOB, address of residency, SSN, etc... and then especially by you offering to sign your legal name right next to the DEFENDANT line at the arraignment, too. That's just the start of it. :boxedin:

Nope, they already have jurisdiction over you because you live in and benefit from this society. You can play games and tap dance over names, address, social security numbers - none of it matters. You can choose not to sign anything, and they still have jurisdiction.

You understand... You accept jurisdiction.

I don't understand what they're talking about.
I don't understand the nature and charges presented against me.
How would they even have my name in the first place?? I sure shouldn't be carrying IDENTIFICATION around with me if I'm a Freeman. Wouldn't you agree?
If I did give them my person's legal info... why would I "waive" anything other than the benefit of the whole court process???

Its no wonder why so many judges legitimately think "freemen" are mentally incompetent and order mental evaluations when you read things like this. Understand has the simple everyday meaning it does - do you comprehend what is going on - which you do. By telling them you don't understand your simply delaying the process because they'll become concerning about mental health. In the end, you can claim you don't understand all day - they still have jurisdiction.
 
Then if you stick to the mythological freeman definition that "person" means only "a corporation," then you can be tried for the same crime over and over again. Of course in reality "person" usually means "natural person" so that would never happen, but were you being consistent with yourself you'd see that you just debunked yourself.
If you believe that a person is a corporation, association, firm, partnership, co-partnership, & natural person...

Don't you think it would be more logical to presume that a natural person would be more like a natural association, or a natural co-partnership???

There's no way you could possibly make me believe that I am on the same level as fictitious entities.

Nope, wrong again. There is no "contract" in this case - its simply a form used to speed up the process. You can choose to not fill it out at all and enter a choice verbally for the record, or the court will enter a not guilty plea for you if you try your freeman antics. You can refuse to sign it all day long and it won't matter a bit. Most people do it because they operate in reality and realize that its just a form.
You have the right to understand the nature and cause of the charges presented against you.. BEFORE you plea. How many people ask to understand the nature and charges??

If you simply say, "I do not feel as if I have been arraigned", then they cannot continue... because they cannot WAIVE the arraignment without YOUR CONSENT. They may offer to enter a plea on your behalf... but would you consent?? ... or would you object?? I'd say, "On and for the Record.... The judge has entered a plea on his own behalf, and he has accepted the consequences that he might stumble upon, but I am NOT entering a plea." To plea is to beg, and there's no need for me to BEG from some coersive thugs.

And how exactly were you tricked here? You choose not to read the document. You could have chosen not to sign it and agian, nothing would have changed.
Right. Notice how I put quotation marks around "tricked".

I was focused on things that weren't important, like what does indigent mean. How indigent do I need to be before I can pick either one. Why does such a loaded question need to be asked in order to distribute justice?

And I was focused on that X next to my signature line... not the signature line below it for the judge. The pen markings truly took my focus off of what I was supposed to be doing... reading the document ("contract") that I was attaching my signature to. And it was definitely a contract. Two signatures were required. At minimum, my silent acquiescence would be required if the judge entered a plea of not guilty on my behalf. But why would I be silent when I have the right to ask questions, understand the nature & cause of the charges against me, and simply... NOT BEG THE COURT AT ALL. It is my RIGHT to WAIVE the BENEFIT/PRIVILEGE of THE COURT... Because WHY? Well, because I am the CREDITOR for the court, of course.

Actually any future run-ins - and your likely to have them if you practice freeman mythology since it has no basis in real law - are more than likely to end you up in contempt of court or in jail over things that normally wouldn't put one in jail.
Constitution isn't real, eh? Uniform Commercial Code isn't real?? Contract law isn't real? Silent acquiescence isn't real?? Arraignments aren't real? Common Law isn't real? Supreme Court case precedent isn't real?? Statutes aren't rules of a society?? I'm not allowed to withdraw myself from society???

I'll lead you to your proofs!!! I can point them all out if you really doubt their validity.

Nope, they already have jurisdiction over you because you live in and benefit from this society. You can play games and tap dance over names, address, social security numbers - none of it matters. You can choose not to sign anything, and they still have jurisdiction.
Living "in" a society is a rebuttable presumption. That I am receiving benefits from their society is another rebuttable presumption.

A Freeman, as well as all men, should actually read their Social Security Insurance cards... it straight up says, "This does not belong to you. It belongs to the Social Security Administrator.... No government agent is required to receive your SSN."

Simply ask... "Am I obligated to give you my SSN?" And then the officer is required to answer with a "NO!"

Repeat for Last Name, Address of Residency, etc...

You are only required to give a name here. I am Kyle. What's your name and what do you want from me?? Oh, you want my information... can you prove that I am required to have such information?? Oh, you can't?? Well... I'll see ya later.

Its no wonder why so many judges legitimately think "freemen" are mentally incompetent and order mental evaluations when you read things like this. Understand has the simple everyday meaning it does - do you comprehend what is going on - which you do. By telling them you don't understand your simply delaying the process because they'll become concerning about mental health. In the end, you can claim you don't understand all day - they still have jurisdiction.
DUCK = Daffy, Donald, & Natural DUCK

Based on the only part of this definition that we can work with... A Natural DUCK sounds more like a cloud in the shape of a duck... not a REAL, LIVING, BREATHING DUCK!!

Do you UNDERSTAND?? That Daffy and Donald don't BREATHE? DO you UNDERSTAND that they are *NOT* REAL!??

They will only get jurisdiction if you agree to it. There's no other way it could happen.

Since you are obviously all too familiar with the Law... why don't we run thru a scenario, any scenario you can come up with... starting with the policy enforcer. SHOOT!!

Really... the more I talk to you attorner-types, the more I'm sure that you are the real cause of society's ails. You lack even the smallest fraction of integrity.
 
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In any event, grndslm, what's with this fixation of yours on old law dictionaries? Law dictionaries do not define words; rather they report upon how courts have interpreted words in various cases.


This seems to be a common problem with FOTLers. They don't understand that the law assumes that the words are interpreted as having their usual meaning in English, and specific legal definitions are only required to clarify or avoid ambiguity, for example specifying that "person" includes artificial persons as well as (the usual english meaning of) natural persons.
 
Since you are obviously all too familiar with the Law... why don't we run thru a scenario, any scenario you can come up with... starting with the policy enforcer. SHOOT!!
Are you the owner of this vehicle sir?
Am I obligated to give you that information?
Whats your name sir?
Am I obligated to give you that information?
Yes
Who says?
Me, now one last time whats your name?
I am not obligated to give you that information?
You are under arrest for failure to provide your name in contravention of the Road Traffic Act sections 164 & 165
But I dont consent to that act
Get in the van sir, you can explain it all to the desk sergeant.
 
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