The Freeman Movement and England

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tobjai said:
Your opinion against mine. Which "god" is it that makes you so paramount? As for me, I don't need one, as my ideas do not involve forcing others to follow my will or that of the collective.


And how exactly does the presence of the state not demonstrate "the strongest"?

Just because there can be worse doesn't make wrong right.


Just as childish as the uprise of traditional slaves was, right? Is there a human need for societies? Sure. Does that need justify societal force over the individual? No. You can either take part or do your own thing - and that's got nothing to do with geographic location.


You always try to justify force coercion and violence over millions with the example the odd-time occurring precedence. Sure they occur... and have to be dealt with then and there. Still no justification to keep the masses in an invisible prison. No horror scenario in the world provides sufficient justifications for some humans to foist their will on others without their consent.


Haha - thats a good one! A state is THE definition for violent possession.


"License to freedom" LOL! Freedom cannot ever be licensed... a state of freedom requires no licensing. So either you are free or not... there is no in between for that would come with restrictions which again are the opposite of freedom. "Perfect freedom" pfff! That can only come from someone who has either no regard for freedom or just doesn't set it on top of the priority list.
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Oh good grief.

I hope that English is your second language. Because that's the only way I could excuse this degree of incomprehension.
 
tobjai said:
And again... self defence... they'll have to do the first (illegitimate) strike though. Thats when us common people come after them with hay forks and rakes (just kidding :)).
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Is it still self-defense if you're reacting to being robbed, say, a week ago, while you were on vacation? Or is that justice... or vengeance?

Who determines what punishment is appropriate? In your anarchist utopia, I'd guess the individual who has been wronged. But what if he or she doles out a punishment grossly out of balance with the crime committed against them? Who punishes this person?
 
tobjai said:
Dude,
that was in regard to state control.
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So you're saying that people in a group who encounter resource limitations will still live peacefully?

Have you read history?

Have you read anything regarding, for example, hunter-gatherer societies during resource shortages?
 
Some interesting reading for tobjai to help with his noble savage delusions:

The Haida went to war to acquire objects of wealth, such as coppers and Chilkat blankets, that were in short supply on the islands, but primarily for slaves, who enhanced their productivity or were traded to other tribes. High-ranking hostages were also the source of other property received in ransom such as crest designs, dances and songs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haida
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tobjai said:
My idea of freedom does not involve "countries"/states (people farms). I acknowledge that in order to survive humans are better off living in groups. That however does neither justify coercion nor statism. I claim that wherever people can live undisturbed, are not restricted to resources (by some fictional "above") and do not have to be subject to intergovernmental affairs (unlike Somalia), they will do so peacefully and productively.
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I have a different view of humanity. I suspect there are enough troublemakers to make it difficult to live in tribal-sized communities. I am also not convinced that the system you describe (which is more just because it excludes systemic violence against the rights and bodies of citizens) is going to have the level of health care I prefer. I really like living near a hospital with state-of-the-art equipment. But I see your point of view - it is better to be free in a community with antiquated medical technology (the odd fluoroscope) than to be slaves in a community with advanced medical technology (fMRI, PET scans).

I don't care about how my legal name is spelled.
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I don't understand. Is your legal name somehow different from your commonly used name? Are you saying that capitals letters don't make a difference or that they do make a difference?


States can either claim things by an act of violence and therefore have no legitimacy or they can pretend. Now, the "uber-juridical" sphere of natural law is well recognized by pretty much all legal systems around the planet. Subsequently it is understood that conventional law can only ever work with codification (which the sheeple don't understand or misinterpret) and the implication of assumed consent... Those who cannot be deceived (revoke consent) and have enough courage and adamance facing the system.. they may just get it their way, for why wouldn't they! Just because some group says "we're the majority and we're stronger" it doesn't give it the right to impose. And of course the legal society is aware of this "dilemma". So they're faced with two choices: The use of illegitimate violence or to let the freeman go.
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I've never understood this last part. Given that the very foundation of the government is unjustified violence against the citizen, and that the act of arresting you (for a victimless crime) and bringing you to court was unjustified violence, why don't they simply continue with the unjustified violence and lock you up? Why do they suddenly at this point say "oh no, he said the words 'admiralty court' AND the words 'right to travel' we better let him go"?

After all when organized crime is extorting money from a business, if the business owner says, "I do not consent to your threats. I recognize you as what you are - the Mafia. You have no legal jurisdiction over me. Furthermore Black's Law Dictionary defines your actions as criminal. I will not pay," then the goons beat the crap out of him. Why does this government (which you believe is as criminal and violent as the Mafia) not follow this same path when enforcing all victimless crimes?
 
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tobjai said:
That would be ideal.

As long as we do not impose on others or their property, yes.


Is that how you justify for you and the likeminded (who constitute states) to violate the will of others? Frankly, I'm living the nightmare. Now, who am I imposing on, trying to get rid of that nightmare? And then ask yourself the question vice-versa.
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Ideal? We are dealing with human beings here,not FOTL robots in some fantasy.Please give us details of your dream world.How would the infrastructure be paid for if nobody pays taxes?If someone breaks into my house and steals my property and I know who did it,what would I do? I can't go to the police because there are no courts.Do I settle my differences with a bow and arrow?Get real.
 
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On a barely related note, I just read a trashy sci-fi novel by Poul Anderson called The Winter of the World. Half the book is filled with detailed descriptions of the perfectly enlightened, sophisticated, perfectly environmentally balanced yet anarchical civilization. No laws. No real conflicts. No real coercion of any kind. Just people living in loosely connected family/tribal groups, natural as could be, but with nearly the same technological and philosophical sophistication as every other society on the planet.

The catch?

They were a different species that evolved from human ancestors after being isolated from the rest of humanity for tens of thousands of years because of a new ice age.
 
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Look guys, tobjai is in this for one thing and one thing only, he wrote
(just got some speeding charges against my legal name dropped - that is in Germany though).
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The rest of his argument is just "pie in the sky" nonsense.
The thing that attracts people to the freeman movement is not creating a freeman society, its getting out of paying for things whilst sponging from others.
The last thing they would want is to actually get off their backsides and do anything.
They all bang on about living off the land and being self sufficient, they wouldnt know where to start without a Google search first (which wouldnt be available by the way) and there would also be a disproportionate acreage of Hemp fields ,you can be sure of that.
 
Ladewig said:
May we have the details?
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got clocked doing 40 something in a 30 zone. A week later I got a letter addressed to what appeared to be my name asking "it" to pay the on the spot fine (indisputable) or else have it turn into a higher penalty charge which then one would be able to dispute.

On behalf of my corporation I wrote back a letter of conditional acceptance. Amongst them...

- a definition of the German word "Führer" (not what you think - in this case I suppose the English synonym would be "operator")
- a proper bill
- an affidavit of truth by the supposed witness stating that I have acted unlawfully in any way.
- proof that I (that is me the human being) am obliged to represent the legal fiction carrying my name OR proof that the German gov. and its institutions is somehow authorized by "god" or nature.

A bit down the road I got a letter back - a half-a** answer that was.... defining the "Führer" as "a Person who...", furthermore stating that their procedure rules aint requiring a bill (like I care), and basically ignoring everything else.

Wrote them back asking them to fulfill all conditions before I was able to proceed with a payment.

Their response: A letter of penalty charge - again totally ignoring my demands.

Wrote back once again, apologizing that under these circumstances I'm unable to continue this interaction.

Subsequently a notice came (actually it was a copy of a letter to the state attorney) asking them to pick up the case and inform them about the outcome (btw "them" in my case was the local county office in charge of that kind of stuff - little to none legal knowledge as far as the staff there is concerned).

Then nothing happened... 1 Month went by... 2... 3... finally I got a letter from the judges office informing me that the case against me has been dropped. By doing so, he referred to some law which apparently allows judges to arbitrarily drop cases (ie. no reason :)).

There you have it... unfortunately my documentation is all in German and probably of little use for the majority in this forum.
 
got clocked doing 40 something in a 30 zone. A week later I got a letter addressed to what appeared to be my name asking "it" to pay the on the spot fine (indisputable) or else have it turn into a higher penalty charge which then one would be able to dispute.
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Wrong, that would be a conditional offer to pay that you recieved.
 
tobjai, didn't you argue repeatedly and strenuously that FOTLism wasn't about petty things like getting out paying traffic fines and dodging taxes?

What a hypocrite you turn out to be.
 
tobjai said:
got clocked doing 40 something in a 30 zone. A week later I got a letter addressed to what appeared to be my name asking "it" to pay the on the spot fine (indisputable) or else have it turn into a higher penalty charge which then one would be able to dispute.

On behalf of my corporation I wrote back a letter of conditional acceptance. Amongst them...

- a definition of the German word "Führer" (not what you think - in this case I suppose the English synonym would be "operator")
- a proper bill
- an affidavit of truth by the supposed witness stating that I have acted unlawfully in any way.
- proof that I (that is me the human being) am obliged to represent the legal fiction carrying my name OR proof that the German gov. and its institutions is somehow authorized by "god" or nature.

A bit down the road I got a letter back - a half-a** answer that was.... defining the "Führer" as "a Person who...", furthermore stating that their procedure rules aint requiring a bill (like I care), and basically ignoring everything else.

Wrote them back asking them to fulfill all conditions before I was able to proceed with a payment.

Their response: A letter of penalty charge - again totally ignoring my demands.

Wrote back once again, apologizing that under these circumstances I'm unable to continue this interaction.

Subsequently a notice came (actually it was a copy of a letter to the state attorney) asking them to pick up the case and inform them about the outcome (btw "them" in my case was the local county office in charge of that kind of stuff - little to none legal knowledge as far as the staff there is concerned).

Then nothing happened... 1 Month went by... 2... 3... finally I got a letter from the judges office informing me that the case against me has been dropped. By doing so, he referred to some law which apparently allows judges to arbitrarily drop cases (ie. no reason :)).

There you have it... unfortunately my documentation is all in German and probably of little use for the majority in this forum.
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Were you driving the car?
 
Ladewig said:
I have a different view of humanity. I suspect there are enough troublemakers to make it difficult to live in tribal-sized communities. I am also not convinced that the system you describe (which is more just because it excludes systemic violence against the rights and bodies of citizens) is going to have the level of health care I prefer.
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Just like everything else, health care is not the business of a state but the individual. Those to whom health care is important are free to find a proper insurance deal.. all without coercion.

But I see your point of view - it is better to be free in a community with antiquated medical technology (the odd fluoroscope) than to be slaves in a community with advanced medical technology (fMRI, PET scans).
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Who says just because a society is free of coercion it cant be as advanced?

I don't understand. Is your legal name somehow different from your commonly used name? Are you saying that capitals letters don't make a difference...
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Yes, I think thats what I've been saying :). For instance the German ID-card I administer is not all-caps (while I've heard from others in Germany who say their's is). The Ontario drivers license or passport I carry around are in fact all caps. Does it matter? Nope.

...why don't they simply continue with the unjustified violence and lock you up? Why do they suddenly at this point say "oh no, he said the words 'admiralty court' AND the words 'right to travel' we better let him go"?
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Why does this government (which you believe is as criminal and violent as the Mafia) not follow this same path when enforcing all victimless crimes?
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Because they have not totally become the Mafia yet (though it tends to more and more go that direction), they do try to accomplish legitimacy, albeit only with respect to themselves (as they keep the populace deceived). Thats why codification was invented. Technically everybody is free to understand the meaning of the law and its implications. In reality very few actually do. Theoretically, everybody is free to go - just in the practical, conventional world we're a far cry away from that.

So what I'm basically doing is trying to make the point why there has to be remedy, while at the same time I'm promoting a whole other (radical to some) state-of-things.
 
So how can I - in your world a slave - leave my master - the country I'm a citizen of and move to another country and not pay income tax to either? (there is no income tax in Bahrain)

What sort of slave are you if you just leave, find work in another place and legally don't owe anything? Please explain how your theory accounts for my being able to not pay my taxes?
 
D'rok said:
tobjai, didn't you argue repeatedly and strenuously that FOTLism wasn't about petty things like getting out paying traffic fines and dodging taxes?
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FOMTLism is indeed first and foremost about principle! The principle however is constituted by many small "petty things". After all FOMTLism IS the stickling of principles!

Considering the initial fine my case was certainly a petty thing.. the time I put into dealing with it would have paid the the ticket many-folds. But it is all about gaining experience, growing a thick skin (very important!), having legal cases to point back at, and riding the principle!!!
 
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