The Freeman Movement and England

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D'rok said:
You didn't bring anything to the table. You told us to go watch a youtube propaganda video.

Grow the **** up.
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The subject was "the fundamental argument" of this threat. It was being addressed by the content of the video, that you likely didn't even watch, 'cos you were too busy looking up "dirt" to help your case of redicule yet once again (you must be really proud). Never mind giving the actual argument honest attention by applying logic, reason and evidence! Hits below the belt are way more fun, aren't they?
 
tobjai said:
The subject was "the fundamental argument" of this threat. It was being addressed by the content of the video, that you likely didn't even watch, 'cos you were too busy looking up "dirt" to help your case of redicule yet once again (you must be really proud). Never mind giving the actual argument honest attention by applying logic, reason and evidence! Hits below the belt are way more fun, aren't they?
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Present one! Put some effort into presenting an argument backed up with logic reason and evidence, and I'll respond in kind.

It's what this forum is for, FFS!
 
OFF TOPIC POST related to Libertarianism

tobjai said:
It is very simple Dave. Just because some people may benefit from something immoral it doesn't make it less immoral nor does it justify its existance. When the United States got rid of slavery (the obvious kind) many many years ago, it was a sole question of moral, whereby other concerns such as "what if that makes wages drop?" or "who's gonna whipe my butt now?" were simply untenable.
Getting rid of the method of violently enforced will (ie statism) also is a sole question of moral. It is totally irrelevant who looks after the streets, schools or whatever, just as it was irrelevant 100 years ago when the abolition of slavery may have brought up questions such as "who's gonna do the crapy work now?". Whatever the structure may be, it cannot be handed the immoral force of violence for nobody has the "god" or nature given right to do so - not one and not the majority. It is only ever "claimed"... with the threat of violence.
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I have read your post and still don't see the part where it is very simple. Even if I agree that there is never a valid reason for a government to seize the money or property of citizens, you still haven't answered Dave's question - how will we pay for a system to protect the property rights and personal rights from people who want to commit crimes (the kind of crimes with victims (murder, theft, rape))?

The video seemed to think that voluntary payments would be enough to cover such expenses. Mr. Molyneux even gave tipping waiters as an example - it is voluntary and yet waiters make a livable wage from such a system. His exact words (around 18:30) were "You do it because that's the thing to do." Do you, Tobjai, believe that voluntary payments will be enough to cover those necessary expenses?


ETA: we can easily start a new thread about Libertarianism if you would like. In any case I would much rather hear a response to post 3920 than this one.
 
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Ladewig said:
...you still haven't answered Dave's question - how will we pay for a system to protect the property rights and personal rights from people who want to commit crimes (the kind of crimes with victims (murder, theft, rape))?
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Do you, Tobjai, believe that voluntary payments will be enough to cover those necessary expenses?
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That wasn't Daves question, but I'll answer it anyways.... By default of nature human kind is ment to live in groups/tribes in order to survive. Statism and coercion on the other hand are not a natural necessety for human beings. If there is a crime with a victim let tribe deal with it. How is it done?
Well, you pay whatever you (INDVIDUALLY) agree to as part of the tribe which also organizes the installation of peace officers, as some of the FOTL do already. If everybody has to bear responsibilty regarding the peace corp, then everybody needs to realistically consider their contribution.
 
tobjai, please explain what points you think the video you posted made that are relevant to this thread. I have no interest in watching a 90 minute video only to then have to guess what point you were trying to make with it. We're not going to make your argument for you, you're going to have to present it yourself.
 
tobjai said:
That wasn't Daves question, but I'll answer it anyways.... By default of nature human kind is ment to live in groups/tribes in order to survive. Statism and coercion on the other hand are not a natural necessety for human beings. If there is a crime with a victim let tribe deal with it. How is it done?
Well, you pay whatever you (INDVIDUALLY) agree to as part of the tribe which also organizes the installation of peace officers, as some of the FOTL do already. If everybody has to bear responsibilty regarding the peace corp, then everybody needs to realistically consider their contribution.
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And now we are back in the realm of FOTL. (1) After "everybody realistically considers their contributions" do you expect to have enough money to patrol the streets; arrest people accused of crimes; collect and store forensic evidence; house the suspect until the trial; provide for a courthouse; and pay a judge, a county prosecutor, a baliff, and a court transcriptionist? (2) will you keep track of who contributes and who doesn't? Will people attacked by criminals have access to local police if they didn't contribute? (3) will national defense also be paid for by voluntary contributions? (4) [ignore if you are not American] how much money do you think each American will need to voluntarily contribute to the national defense in order to protect the U.S. from attacks?


ETA: (5) what is your opinion of post #3920?

(6) given that no government-issued IDs will be available (and no national database of fingerprints or DNA will be available), what is to stop a person from committing a crime in one "tribal area" or jurisdiction and then travelling across country under an assumed name to avoid prosecution?
 
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tobjai said:
That wasn't Daves question, but I'll answer it anyways.... By default of nature human kind is ment to live in groups/tribes in order to survive. Statism and coercion on the other hand are not a natural necessety for human beings. If there is a crime with a victim let tribe deal with it. How is it done?
Well, you pay whatever you (INDVIDUALLY) agree to as part of the tribe which also organizes the installation of peace officers, as some of the FOTL do already. If everybody has to bear responsibilty regarding the peace corp, then everybody needs to realistically consider their contribution.
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great idea tobjai. check out this thread to see how well that worked out for a Mr. Gene Cranick
 
For anyone not watching the circus, Freeman Steven has been causing quite a ruckus on the DI forums:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138423

The Freeloaders on the Land there aren't quite sure what to do with him. On the one hand, he's claiming stories of incredible success without proof or evidence...but they all do, so they can't actually call him out on it. Its got to be one of the most hilarious examples of FOTL implosion on the internet. To top it all off, some of the very same people in that group that have shown themselves to be mentally ill (admitting that they were diagnosed but it was just a part of the grand conspiracy to keep them down by the admiralty courts) are now trying to diagnose Freeman Steven.

It simply does not get any better than this, my friends.

I used to be a bit concerned that the Freeloader woo would spread because were in a tough economy and people are susceptible to woo systems that tell them they can fix everything easily. But with people like this in the movement, you'd have to be nearly crazy to begin with to fall for it...
 
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LightinDarkness said:
I used to be a bit concerned that the Freeloader woo would spread because were in a tough economy and people are susceptible to woo systems that tell them they can fix everything easily.
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Concerned? na, there is only about 10 of them. They are all about 40 ish,never worked and have severe hash habits.
I feel sorry for them. Wait till the Torries stop their benefits, most of these losers have four or five kids and live in big houses paid for by the tax payer but the mean old torries are gonna cap how much money they get.
 
By the way, its good to see Rob Menard and the rest of the crackpots over at FMOTL apparently are obsessively reading this thread. I knew someone as obsessive over himself as Rob couldn't simply walk away from these forums, and my little attempt to provoke him into showing that hes still here worked like a charm:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138423&page=7

Rob Menard seems to think we've said Freeman Steven is a liar, but of course we haven't - I've simply stated that Freeman Steve is offering stories of wild success without proof. As Rob does all the time. Why is it Rob has inferred Freeman Steve is lying when he doesn't think the same of all the other fact-less stories and propaganda he pushes? By the way, since Rob apparently reads this forum quite a lot, why don't you actually post here? I know you were debunked so terribly awful the last two times it was a blow to your ego, but we're still waiting for your evidence. Just one piece of evidence that shows FMOTL works, and my $10,000 challenge is still waiting for you. And you get to "win" the argument.

I love watching the Freeman mythology go down in flames. Rob's trying to lead a three ring circus and the tent is falling down all around him.

Rob's Cunning Plan: FAILED
Rob's Freeman Utopia Valley: FAILED
Providing 1 Court Case As Proof: FAILED
 
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Horatius said:
Has it occurred to them that anyone using Brian the Dog as an avatar just might be a closet skeptic punking them?
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Rob conman Menard has quoted this on the icke site. He claims his movement is growing????? So this dirty tramp like figure comes here and reads what decent,right thinking people have to say. I feel sorry for him, really i do. He must come here and realise he is a dumb **** and then have to go back to the icke site so he can sit with all the other retards at the bottom table and pretend he is smart, just to feel better.Take a bath you disgusting jake. Or better still, join in, defend your position, no wait sorry, i was forgetting, it's only losers and retards from the icke that buy your lies, normal people can see thru your scam act and therefore you have no chance of scamming money from them.
 
LightinDarkness said:
Rob's Freeman Utopia Valley: FAILED
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That one was when I realized at last that FOTLism deserves only mockery. He ended up getting run out of town and off of the land he was trying con some dude into giving him. Dude smartened up. Menard outta luck. Again.

At one point, I was considering acting IRL to try to mitigate some of the harm caused by Menard's cons. But what's the point? Most of the people that he harms by convincing them to try FOTLism will eventually find their way to a decent lawyer, and those that don't are likely beyond help anyways.
 
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