The Freeman Movement and England

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Let's start with this. What are the court case #s that demonstrate FMOTL success?[/QUOTE]

I am sure we can agree court is a place for people with conflicts.

Your idea of success involves a conflict that was resokved, whereas true success is a conflict that is avoided.

If conflict is avoided, and there is no court, there is a success and no records thereof.

Your idea of what constitutes 'success', is to Freemen who know how to behave, constitutes failure.

I am not trying to be evasive, but merely sharing the honest truth as I see it.

The other problem is that the courts as the operate now, are a 'benefit', and even if you claim to be a Freeman, if they then start providing you with services, such as a court, you have by seeking those services, (if you have not done so properly,) will have abandoned your previous claim.

See the issue boils down to you saying "Show me court proof!" but the court then says "By seeking proof form us, you have secured a benefit, and abandoned your previous status. Welcome back to the fold. We are find you are not a Freeman any more. Please pay the cashier.

As a Freeman, I will not seek their benefits, as doing so means I abandon my status, yet the only thing apparently you will accept as proof is me accepting their benefits and keeping my status. Do you see the problem?

You raise an impossible task and it is evidence to me you do not understand what a Freeman is about nor how the courts operate at present.
 
Sledge said:
I'd sorta disagree with that. People are of course entitled to think and believe whatever they want. As soon as they put those thoughts or beliefs into public, and especially if they're claiming that those thoughts and beliefs are a guide for other people to act on, they have an obligation to show their working, as it were.
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I agree that there is a moral/ethical obligation. I was really just speaking narrowly in terms of a binding obligation. Ethical considerations are not binding on FOTLers, at least not those at the top of the FOTL food chain.
 
Long ago, I offered Rob and his followers $10,000 to start a legal defense funds for freemen if they could provide me with one single court case where the judge wrote an opinion stating that the defendant was free to go and innocent of charges due to his freeman on the land status. I don't care what the charge is. I don't care what type of court it is or what country its from. Just one, single case that demonstrates that Freeman on the land legal ritual works.

I could have offered $1 million, or even $10 million, because even though I don't have those sums of money like I did the $10,000, I know that they would never be able to come up with it because it doesn't exist.

What better way to defend the awakened masses from legal tyranny then a little bit of seed money for a legal defense fund? There is just the matter of proof...which shouldn't be a problem, right? Since Freeman on the Land woo is actually quite real and works all the time, right? The money is now gone, but I am more than happy to begin saving again for the cause. Just need a little proof here, Rob.

Interestingly, Rob has now amended his definition of "success" because he knows this woo fails in courts, so now he tells us that real Freemen never go to court. That's fine. I'll also take any police reports, or any other form of government documentation noting that due to your Freeman status you are not subject to the statute law.
 
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FreemanMenard said:
I am sure we can agree court is a place for people with conflicts.

Your idea of success involves a conflict that was resokved, whereas true success is a conflict that is avoided.

If conflict is avoided, and there is no court, there is a success and no records thereof.

Your idea of what constitutes 'success', is to Freemen who know how to behave, constitutes failure.

I am not trying to be evasive, but merely sharing the honest truth as I see it.

The other problem is that the courts as the operate now, are a 'benefit', and even if you claim to be a Freeman, if they then start providing you with services, such as a court, you have by seeking those services, (if you have not done so properly,) will have abandoned your previous claim.

See the issue boils down to you saying "Show me court proof!" but the court then says "By seeking proof form us, you have secured a benefit, and abandoned your previous status. Welcome back to the fold. We are find you are not a Freeman any more. Please pay the cashier.

As a Freeman, I will not seek their benefits, as doing so means I abandon my status, yet the only thing apparently you will accept as proof is me accepting their benefits and keeping my status. Do you see the problem?

You raise an impossible task and it is evidence to me you do not understand what a Freeman is about nor how the courts operate at present.
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We all know that FOTL techniques fail in court. The very first thing I asked of you here was to provide some documentation of avoiding conflict. The paradigmatic example would be a cell phone video of a traffic cop stopping you and letting you "travel" without license, insurance or registration.

Surely that is reasonable?
 
D'rok said:
I agree that there is a moral/ethical obligation. I was really just speaking narrowly in terms of a binding obligation. Ethical considerations are not binding on FOTLers, at least not those at the top of the FOTL food chain.
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Ah, fair do's.
 
FreemanMenard said:
The other problem is that the courts as the operate now, are a 'benefit', and even if you claim to be a Freeman, if they then start providing you with services, such as a court, you have by seeking those services, (if you have not done so properly,) will have abandoned your previous claim.

See the issue boils down to you saying "Show me court proof!" but the court then says "By seeking proof form us, you have secured a benefit, and abandoned your previous status. Welcome back to the fold. We are find you are not a Freeman any more. Please pay the cashier.

As a Freeman, I will not seek their benefits, as doing so means I abandon my status, yet the only thing apparently you will accept as proof is me accepting their benefits and keeping my status. Do you see the problem?

You raise an impossible task and it is evidence to me you do not understand what a Freeman is about nor how the courts operate at present.
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So all this freemen woo about how we have to act in court:

- Not passing the bar
- Declaring that you keep all your "human rights"
- Making the judges recite their oaths

And all the other crap that you previously preached and supported is now out the window? Very well. We all know none of it worked anyways.

So instead of a court case, how about a letter from any government body stating that you are exempt from any legal requirement due to your status as a freeman on the land. Should be very easy to do, if any of this is real and works. Some examples:

- Letter from your local council noting you are exempt from property taxes because you are a freeman on the land.
- Police report noting that you were observed committing a statute offense and were let go upon learning of your freeman on the land status.
- Letter from the motor vehicles agency noting that you do not need plates or insurance because you are a freeman on the land.

All of these documents are real and can be provided by people who are really exempt from certain legal requirements. For example, my local animal shelter doesn't pay taxes - and it has a letter from the IRS noting it as an exempt organization. If freeman status is real and not just legal woo, it would be perfectly normal for you to request and receive such documents from government agencies.

There is a infinite amount of proof you could provide outside of court cases. We eagerly await all of your documents. For privacy reasons, make sure you black out any personal information.
 
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LightinDarkness said:
So all this freemen woo about how we have to act in court:

- Not passing the bar
- Declaring that you keep all your "human rights"
- Making the judges recite their oaths

And all the other crap that you previously preached and supported is now out the window? Very well. We all know none of it worked anyways.

So instead of a court case, how about a letter from any government body stating that you are exempt from any legal requirement due to your status as a freeman on the land. Should be very easy to do, if any of this is real and works. Some examples:

- Letter from your local council noting you are exempt from property taxes because you are a freeman on the land.
- Police report noting that you were observed committing a statute offense and were let go upon learning of your freeman on the land status.
- Letter from the motor vehicles agency noting that you do not need plates or insurance because you are a freeman on the land.

And we could go on and on. There is a infinite amount of proof you could provide outside of court cases. We eagerly await all of your documents. For privacy reason, make sure you black out any personal information.
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Seconded.
 
LightinDarkness said:
I think Rob knows his time is short, which is why hes become absolutely hysterical these last few weeks. Hes gone from simply being yet another woo scamming other deranged people to near foaming at the mouth hysterics and paranoia.

The thing about freeman on the land woo is that it promises much and delivers nothing, because its all made up. True, were dealing with less than intelligent people to begin with who fall for it, but not all of them will put up with 0 results indefinitely. There are a small group of the really delusional who will, but they don't have the disposable income to keep Rob's scam afloat.

Interestingly, Rob does not accept A4V for his swag and other products. I wonder why...
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LMAO! Or is that too hysterical? I think you have no idea what that word means, but you hope it is insulting, and so you use it way out of context and with no regard for its standard definition. What evidence of 'hysteria' can you show? lol

Freeman is made up? Just like the criminal code and all the statutes? Or are they 'NOT MADE UP'? Will you answer that?

I do not do A4V for my products because I have no tax liability, thus they are not valuable to me, whereas if I was operating as a company with tax liabilities, I would accept them to meet those liabilities. If you were to bother to study and understand these things BEFORE judging and criticizing them, you would know that. But you prefer to attack those whose ideas offend your beliefs.

As for whether or not it delivers, its growth which is rather phenomenal, is a result of people finding remedy and truth.

And I have all the proof I need to be able to do what I do successfully. You do all notice all you can do is cry here on this little forum, right? While we have literally thousands who are filing and serving notices and claims, in all sorts of countries, all across the globe, right? You all do see that fundamental truth, right?

I know you are all mostly in denial, but you aren't denying that are you?
You honestly do not think you are winning do you?

Our membership grows daily. Governments receive our notices and claims daily. All you folks do is sit here and as one said 'chew'.

Seriously, you folks are not even in the race. But I am and now my rendering is almost done.

PS- Did you see how many movies I made since I decided trying to discuss on this forum was a waste of time due to the average level of maturity here? Yeap kicked butt in that department. What did ANY of you folks actually do besides sit around here and pat each other on the head for your shared blinders? Little ole me put out all those movies, and all of you did not put out one.

And you think I am fearful of Asky and his blog... LMAO!

:D
 
FreemanMenard said:
Let's start with this.
remirol said:
What are the court case #s that demonstrate FMOTL success?
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I am sure we can agree court is a place for people with conflicts.

Your idea of success involves a conflict that was resokved, whereas true success is a conflict that is avoided.

If conflict is avoided, and there is no court, there is a success and no records thereof.
Click to expand...

So there are no court cases on record in which FMOTL have applied their principles and won their case. However, there are many, many court cases on record in which FMOTL have applied their principles and lost their case, as well as making matters worse for themselves.

It does not appear that FMOTL holds any practical value whatsoever.

Your idea of what constitutes 'success', is to Freemen who know how to behave, constitutes failure.

I am not trying to be evasive, but merely sharing the honest truth as I see it.
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I do not believe you. I think you have no choice but to be evasive, because the truth is something you cannot afford to have told. Again, it's very hard to sell "How to be a Freeman" kits if being a Freeman just gets you increased fines and sent to jail the first time you try to actually assert all of these supposed 'rights'.

See the issue boils down to you saying "Show me court proof!" but the court then says "By seeking proof form us, you have secured a benefit, and abandoned your previous status. Welcome back to the fold. We are find you are not a Freeman any more. Please pay the cashier.
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This is a non sequitur. When Freemen are hauled into court for not paying council tax (for example), have any of them ever won their case by demonstrating Freeman beliefs? What about this Josh fellow who received numerous tickets and court summons for not having proof of insurance or a car registration?

Are you advocating that Freemen should not show up to court when summoned?
 
FreemanMenard said:
LMAO! Or is that too hysterical? I think you have no idea what that word means, but you hope it is insulting, and so you use it way out of context and with no regard for its standard definition. What evidence of 'hysteria' can you show? lol

Freeman is made up? Just like the criminal code and all the statutes? Or are they 'NOT MADE UP'? Will you answer that?

I do not do A4V for my products because I have no tax liability, thus they are not valuable to me, whereas if I was operating as a company with tax liabilities, I would accept them to meet those liabilities. If you were to bother to study and understand these things BEFORE judging and criticizing them, you would know that. But you prefer to attack those whose ideas offend your beliefs.

As for whether or not it delivers, its growth which is rather phenomenal, is a result of people finding remedy and truth.

And I have all the proof I need to be able to do what I do successfully. You do all notice all you can do is cry here on this little forum, right? While we have literally thousands who are filing and serving notices and claims, in all sorts of countries, all across the globe, right? You all do see that fundamental truth, right?

I know you are all mostly in denial, but you aren't denying that are you?
You honestly do not think you are winning do you?

Our membership grows daily. Governments receive our notices and claims daily. All you folks do is sit here and as one said 'chew'.

Seriously, you folks are not even in the race. But I am and now my rendering is almost done.

PS- Did you see how many movies I made since I decided trying to discuss on this forum was a waste of time due to the average level of maturity here? Yeap kicked butt in that department. What did ANY of you folks actually do besides sit around here and pat each other on the head for your shared blinders? Little ole me put out all those movies, and all of you did not put out one.

And you think I am fearful of Asky and his blog... LMAO!

:D
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Quit the ranting and show some evidence.
 
FreemanMenard said:
Plenty! Providing them however seems like a lot of work, with no benefit to me. Care to fix that? Or are you another super entitled one who can demand service without recompense?
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Provide a name. Like R v. Numpty. I'll find it for you. Just type in the name. One case. Just one.
 
Wouldn't the benefit to you be that people would see you could back up your position?

If that's not important to you, why post here at all?

Rolfe.
 
Are you advocating that Freemen should not show up to court when summoned?
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Not unless they wish to abandon their status as Freeman by agreeing to the services of the court, or they know how to act in there to maintain their status. Many do not and then mess up and walk into court as a Freeman, enter into contract unknowingly, and lose said status.

If you want to abandon your status then yes go to court and use their services. Respond to a summons (offer) like you have no choice. (When a shoe store sends you notice of a sale are you obliged to attend?)
 
FreemanMenard said:
Not unless they wish to abandon their status as Freeman by agreeing to the services of the court, or they know how to act in there to maintain their status. Many do not and then mess up and walk into court as a Freeman, enter into contract unknowingly, and lose said status.

If you want to abandon your status then yes go to court and use their services. Respond to a summons (offer) like you have no choice. (When a shoe store sends you notice of a sale are you obliged to attend?)
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And what happens when an FOTLer ignores a summons?
 
Yep, Rob, you fit the definition of hysterical quite well. You say you have no tax liability and this is why you do not accept A4V for your products? Seems like are blazing a new trail on A4V every day (AKA your making this up as you go along), as you claim people use this woo for tax bills and all sort of bills for organizations that have no tax liability. Why is it its OK to use it on these organizations, but you don't take it?

I have no doubt hundreds (not thousands) of your fellow woos are serving meaningless notices across the globe. Do you know what the effect of them is? Zero. Nothing. Nada. That is because they are not based on any legal reality. You could serve governments with pictures of clowns and have same impact.

By the way, this isn't an issue of winning or losing because there is nothing to win or lose. We operate in reality, you operate in a world of delusions.
 
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