The Freeman Movement and England

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Is there a more recent set of links detailing her contempt trial? I don't really feel like lookign back through twenty pages of thread here only to go to hunt through a lot of drivel on the icke forum....

The David Icke version of her trial events is here, and this is the thread where she returns after being thrown in jail to the forums:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84422&page=8

Its a good read "for the luls", if nothing else.
 
It is about* the most inexplicable woo that I can think of:

Alt-med: "Well-they-dress-in-white-coats-and-scientists-don't-know-everything-and-did-you-see-what-the-beep-do-we-know" Actually that could go for almost any alt-med.

Conspiracy theories: "Well the CIA/Mossad/KGB/WRVS are incredibly competent and very secret and They (capitalized) lie to us"

But this:

you have to assume not only that you are in the right, but that when you go up in front of a magistrate, that they have been trained in The Secret Law and will accept the "reasoning" when presented to them, but are otherwise utterly insincere, or alternatively they are sincere, and they will suddenly be convinced a legal argument that they must have been unfamiliar with previously.

And fancy it being on David Ike forums

*OK: Prince Philip as a reptilian overlord is a bit hard to swallow too, I suppose, unless you think that the Slitheen are real and Dr Who is a documentary.
 
It's not?

Well if I had to pick between the "freeman movement" and "Dr Who" as to which is closer to reality, Dr Who wins hands down! In fact I think you'd have more chance in a UK court arguing that you should be set free because the court is in breach of the Shadow Proclamation than quoting "freeman of the land" nonsense. After all even magistrates and judges will have heard of Dr Who!
 
Exactly.

And this gets back to the issue of "unconstitutional." What does it mean for Parliament to pass an "unconstitutional" statute (as the opening poster so glibly threw around)?

If such conventions are in fact part of the pseudo-constitution, then they themselves should be protected. That's the reasoning behind the "implied repeal" doctrine; Parliament -- or more accurately, the whole Parliamentary system -- should be protected from its own errors. (That's also the reasoning behind the "mischief doctrine"; if you can't figure out what the hell a bad Act of Parliament is supposed to do, look at what it was supposed to address and interpret accordingly.)

Or, as CS Lewis might have expressed it, a meaningless sentence will not gain meaning just because someone entitles it "By Act of Parliament," and the courts recognize that.

ETA. What this means in practice is the courts have granted themselves a certain amount of discretion in terms of cleaning up after Parliament and to quietly ignore or reinterpret the ravings of a lunatic Parliament in the same way that courtiers have historically interpreted a more absolutist king's pronouncements to get things done. All very discreetly and hush-hush, of course, because according to,.... well, according to the letter of what would be the law if there were any law,... Parliament could pass an act forcing the sun to rise in the west on penalty of treason, and executing everyone who disagreed with the act as accessories after the fact.

Sorry, I meant to reply to this.

I take your point, but to my knowledge, conventions never have been protected. As an example, there used to be a convention that Ministers resigned if their department's policies resulted in a major screw-up. Now they stick around.

Whilst courts may aim to put the most sensible interpretation on statutes, there is a limit to how far they can stretch the meaning of words. Parliament may lack the balls knowingly to pass a law inconsistent with, say, the Bill of Rights, but if it did so inadvertently I reckon it would take at least as much ballsiness for a judge to call it "unconstitutional" and refuse to apply it on that basis. If it happened, and the verdict was upheld all the way to the Supreme Court, that would probably in itself provoke a constitutional crisis.
 
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Although Parliament is technically and legally supreme, there is an unwritten tradition that one doesn't mess with the long-standing documents like the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights 1689. I could argue -- and most legal scholars have argued -- that this makes these documents de facto superior to Parliament. Think of it as argumentum ad eunuchum -- Parliament lacks the balls to provoke such a crisis, and therefore willingly submits to certain restrictions. Restrictions that no one has actually bothered to codify.


The problem with this argument is that you're essentially claiming the existence of an invisible unicorn.

An alternative explanation is that Parliament is supreme, and simply chooses not to change these documents. Or to simplify, just because they can doesn't mean they want to.

That's just the logical issue with this argument.

There's also the practical problem, namely that Parliament has displayed the balls to mess with those laws - repeatedly. In fact every single clause of the Magna Carta has been repealed save three.
 
There's also the practical problem, namely that Parliament has displayed the balls to mess with those laws - repeatedly. In fact every single clause of the Magna Carta has been repealed save three.

In fairness, I believe the argument is that the Parliamentary convention of not messing with certain constitutional statutes is a very recent development. A very quick scoot on LexisNexis shows that the last time Parliament amended MC was 1969. But yes, the fact that Parliament has repeatedly played around with MC weakens the argument.
 
The entire point of the the rule of law is that everyone is bound by it, from the Queen herself down to the lowliest street sweeper.

I thought the Queen was above the law as all cases are brought in her name (Regina). Therefore she could drive down Windsor Great Park as is her wont, shoot some passing pleb shouting Take that, mofo!, and get away scot free.
 
I thought the Queen was above the law as all cases are brought in her name (Regina). Therefore she could drive down Windsor Great Park as is her wont, shoot some passing pleb shouting Take that, mofo!, and get away scot free.

To Prince Philip, that's just another Sunday afternoon.
 
To Prince Philip, that's just another Sunday afternoon.

I'm sure that if he were a giant lizard his aim wouldn't be nearly so good.

How many Olympic shooting events have been won by lizards?
 
That's nonsense. This does not limit Parliamentary Supremacy at all. By simple basis of logic, Parliamentary law has to be consistent - precisely because it is the supreme authority. It is required that any new law passed by Parliament comply with all currently existing laws, otherwise Parliament's supremacy becomes undermined.

Erm,.... this is exactly incorrect. It is precisely because Parliament is supreme that new laws need not be consistent with existing laws. In the event that Parliament decides to pass a new law that conflicts with an old one, the new one overturns the old one. Or as a classic Victorian formulation put it, "Parliament is not bound by its predecessor."

Or, as wikipedia puts it, "No Parliament can bind a future parliament (that is, it cannot pass a law that cannot be changed or reversed by a future Parliament)."

Or, as Parliament itself put it, "No Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change."

"Over the years, Parliament has passed laws that limit the application of parliamentary sovereignty. These laws reflect political developments both within and outside the UK.

They include:

* The devolution of power to bodies like the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly.
* The Human Rights Act 1998.
* The UK's entry to the European Union in 1972.
* The decision to establish a UK Supreme Court in 2009, which ends the House of Lords function as the UK's final court of appeal.

These developments do not fundamentally undermine the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, since, in theory at least, Parliament could repeal any of the laws implementing these changes."



When Parliament wishes to overturn laws they don't pass new laws that contradict them. They repeal the old laws. I aren't as familiar with UK law, but the Acts of the New Zealand parliament are overflowing with repealed sections.

So are the UK laws. The question is, what happens if Parliament does not explicitly repeal and old law, but just passes new ones. And the answer, legally, is that the new one implicitly repeals the old one and takes precedence.

The sole exception to that is the new legal theory that certain documents are so fundamental that they trump the ability of Parliament to implicitly repeal them.


This is where the twin pillars of Parliamentary Supremacy and Rule of Law are so important. Parliament cannot break an existing law. So if they pass a law saying "The Bill of Rights can only be altered by 2/3 majority" they cannot then repeal that section except by a 2/3 majority - because the law dictates it and they are bound by the law.

Wrong. This is explicit. Parliament cannot bind a future Parliament. The future parliament can simply vote to repeal the law by a simple majority and it is repealed.

That's the key aspects of Parliamentary supremacy, and the reason that Canada has a "Charter" of Rights and Freedoms. They literally had to re-write and fundamentally restructure the governance of their country in order to create a set of rules that would be binding on future parliaments. (Specifically, what they did was they got the BRITISH Parliament to pass an Act mandating that all Canadian parliaments follow this Charter, and then the British Parliament foreswore the ability to legislate for Canada and granted Canada total sovereignty, thus locking in the Charter.)

However as long as they are within the confines of the law, they can repeal that section and replace it with anything they want.

Right but misleading. Parliament need not be within the confines of anything -- they can do what they want, when they want. Because no previous Parliament has the authority to restrict what they do.

In particular, Parliament could still attempt to pass an amendment to the Canadian constitution (as they did when they created the Charter), but at this point as a sovereign nation, Canada would probably simply ignore them. The fact that Parliament has sworn never to interfere with Canada's internal affairs again means as little as the fact that Parliament has sworn to devolve power to the Welsh Assembly. What one Parliament can do another Parliament can freely undo.
 
I'm sure that if he were a giant lizard his aim wouldn't be nearly so good.

How many Olympic shooting events have been won by lizards?

You speciesist! How do you know lizards haven't won any shooting awards because we don't allow them to compete? Open the Olympics up to all lifeforms and see what happens!
 
I challenged him some time ago in the thread to PM me with details of my location. Anyone educated in Britain should be able to get street and town from the information under my avatar, with no difficulty.

Crickets.

Rolfe.
 
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