The Exodus Myth

[ddt]

Indeed!!!

And in fact those priests were foreign emissaries sent by a very clever Empreror to subjugate and pacify and administrate the area.

Europeans and their colonies today unquestioningly and wholeheartedly cherish the FOREIGN religion imposed upon their ancestors by the tip of a sword following the rapine, rape and plunder of their cultures.

Informed people (the rest still do not know) today would have no idea where Christianity came from or what is the REAL SORDID HISTORY of it all, had it not been for some honest people dedicated to the truth of history.

Had it been up to the church no one would know any better.

Unfortunately for the Canaanites who were subjugated to Judaism first under Jeremiah and Nehemiah and Zerubbabel and then later under the Hasmoneans there was no one to write the real history of things. But even within the Bible itself there are Telltale Testimonials To The Tall Tales^©.

The Phoenician/Canaanite cultures were wiped out and vilified and all but utterly erased from the memories of even the Canaanites themselves.

Just like Europeans they were wholeheartedly hoodwinked by the Imperial Propaganda and today think their abusive exploitative Mafioso god actually exists and loves them and chose them over all people.

What they do not realize is that the chosen people where a cabal and cadre of MAGI PRIESTS in the service of Imperial Zoroastrian kings who devised the whole myth as a Propaganda to better subjugate the conquered people.

Your claims about the genesis of Judaism are, hmm, interesting to say the least. But could you flesh them out a bit? In particular:

1) Where did the stories come from that Nehemiah, Ezra et.al. compiled to be the Torah? Did they exist, or did Ezra invent them out of whole cloth?

2) In particular, where do the doublets come from that are so frequent in the Torah?

3) How do you reconcile the fact that the Samaritans have a Torah that is very, very similar to the Jewish one?

4) What were the Jews before Cyrus? Polytheistic? Henotheistic?

5) In particular, is your claim that Judaic monotheism was not so much invented by the Jews themselves, but was taken over from Zoroastrianism?

(the latter, of course, with due reverence to the resident Pharaoh who was the oldest known inventor of monotheism).

 

[HansMustermann]

Enjoy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler's_laws_of_planetary_motion

I was thinking of Copernicus for some reason, sorry. My brain-fart.

Nevertheless, the rest of the objections still stand. Including the most important one: that they could measure that star's position as finely as to have only plus/minus a minute of arc margin of error, it would still be plus/minus 2km or so for exactly what it's above. With the instruments they would actually have at the time? That's more like they wouldn't even be able to tell if it's directly above Bethlehem or Jerusalem.

And as a passing observation (pun intended) could you point out to me where in Matthews narrative it is claimed the star hovered over a specific point please?

"After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was." -- Matthew 2:9

My emphasis. I'd say it's pretty clear from Matt's account how it pointed out the position. Also that the star was visible from before the Magi started from Persia, to when that happened, since they start their journey when they first see it.

But if you have some other idea for how the star would point out the exact stable in Bethlehem, please do share it.

 

[HansMustermann]

Nitpick, but Kepler was actually the guy who proposed elliptical orbits. (otherwise, his second law would not make sense )

Yeah, as I was saying, I mixed it up in my head with Copernicus. That's what I get for posting at 2AM, I guess.

 

[HansMustermann]

I would like to add that even a planet in retrograde motion, chances are it wouldn't actually sit still in the sky above one place even briefly. The movement of planets in the sky is judged compared to fixed constellations. E.g., you might plot Mars as starting to go backwards, against the point of reference of, say, the Cancer constellation.

But that is an important point: it stops or goes back, relative to the firmament, not to the vertical of the place on Earth.

Earth still rotates around its axis, and the firmament appears to move from east to west, essentially. Jupiter (or Saturn or Mars or whatever) may appear to stand still on the firmament or lag behind it a bit, but it will still move from east to west in the sky.

Again, let's do the maths.

At its nearest, Jupiter is still about 600,000,000 km away. To appear to stand still above a place on Earth, its apparent angular velocity would have to be the same as Earth's rotation. So it's relative speed would be 2*PI*r/period.

2*PI* 600,000,000 km / 24h is about 157 MILLION km/h, or about 44 MILLION metres per second. That's already relativistic.

To put it into perspective, Jupiter's orbital speed is only about 13,000 m/s and Earth's is just shy of 30,000 m/s. Even if they revolved in opposite directions around the sun, that would still be 3 orders of magnitude less than what's required for it to actually appear to stand still in the sky.

It CAN'T just stop above one spot on Earth. Not even briefly. Not EVER.

 

[Rincewind]

Very strange that a person would contradict themselves—I only saw it when you pointed it out.
Does that discredit everything else that states that they stayed at 50 different places—I think not.

Strange, but true.

Well, thank you, finally, for admitting this.

If the Exodus story is true, then it's possible that they could have taken the journey as described in your reference.

However:

Of course, the next step is to recognise that as Kadesh-Barnea has been identified as Ein-el-Qudeirat, and has been repeatedly excavated without anything being discovered that could conceivably give credence to the Exodus, the whole story is shot to pieces.

Add in all the other factors disproving the Exodus story, and the whole shebang dissolves into fiction...

 

[ddt]

I would like to add that even a planet in retrograde motion, chances are it wouldn't actually sit still in the sky above one place even briefly. The movement of planets in the sky is judged compared to fixed constellations. E.g., you might plot Mars as starting to go backwards, against the point of reference of, say, the Cancer constellation.

But that is an important point: it stops or goes back, relative to the firmament, not to the vertical of the place on Earth.

Earth still rotates around its axis, and the firmament appears to move from east to west, essentially. Jupiter (or Saturn or Mars or whatever) may appear to stand still on the firmament or lag behind it a bit, but it will still move from east to west in the sky.

Again, let's do the maths.

At its nearest, Jupiter is still about 600,000,000 km away. To appear to stand still above a place on Earth, its apparent angular velocity would have to be the same as Earth's rotation. So it's relative speed would be 2*PI*r/period.

2*PI* 600,000,000 km / 24h is about 157 MILLION km/h, or about 44 MILLION metres per second. That's already relativistic.

To put it into perspective, Jupiter's orbital speed is only about 13,000 m/s and Earth's is just shy of 30,000 m/s. Even if they revolved in opposite directions around the sun, that would still be 3 orders of magnitude less than what's required for it to actually appear to stand still in the sky.

It CAN'T just stop above one spot on Earth. Not even briefly. Not EVER.

That's a very good point to point out. No single star, planet or other celestial body can "stand still" in the sky.

Well, there's one exception: Polaris. However, in Jesus' time:

During the 1st millennium BC, β Ursae Minoris was the bright star closest to the celestial pole, but it was never close enough to be taken as marking the pole, and the Greek navigator Pytheas in ca. 320 BC described the celestial pole as devoid of stars.

In the Roman era, the celestial pole was about equally distant from α Ursae Minoris (Cynosura) and β Ursae Minoris (Kochab).

even that did not apply.

 

[pakeha]

So it is your contention that all the Roman accounts of crucifictions are made up? That is a very odd position to hold.

And an even more odd reply for you to make.
What's your point?

 

[crhkrebs]

Much like Germany is called that in English but it is called Alemania in Spanish and Allemagne in French and the Germans call themselves Deutchland.

Germania was called so in Roman because Germanicus conquered it. It is called Alemania/Allemagne in Spanish/French because as far as they were concerned the main tribes there were the Alemannis.

Err............no.

Germany was not called Germania because of Germanicus Julius Caesar, anymore than Africa was named after Scipio Africanus, or Asia was named after Lucius Cornelius Scipio Asiaticus.

The name Germanicus was an agnomen given to him after his victories in Germania. Likewise with the Scipios after the battles of Zama and Magnesia, respectively. They are honorary titles based on the place of their military exploits.

The name Germany comes from an old Latin word from which the modern words "germaine" and "germinal" are derived. It meant "brotherly" or "related to". It most likely meant that the various Germanic tribes all spoke a related, common language.

By the way, saying Germanicus conquered Germania is a bit of an exaggeration. The Romans barely made inroads east of the Rhine. And the correct name is Deutschland, from the old German "diut" meaning "the people".

Pedantic mode off.

 

[Brainache]

That's a very good point to point out. No single star, planet or other celestial body can "stand still" in the sky.

Well, there's one exception: Polaris. However, in Jesus' time:

even that did not apply.

Or, given gMatt's obsession with Jeebus fulfilling OT Prophecy, I'd bet it has something to do with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Prophecy

The "Star Prophecy" (or Star and Scepter prophecy) is a Messianic reading applied by radical Jews and early Christians to Numbers 24:17:

"I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth."

which was often employed during the troubled years that led up to the Jewish Revolt, the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem (70 CE) and the suicidal last stand of the Sicarii at Masada in 73 CE. The Star Prophecy appears in the Qumran texts called the Dead Sea scrolls. "This was the prophecy that was of such importance to all resistance groups in this period, including those responsible for the documents at Qumran and the revolutionaries who triggered the war against Rome, not to mention the early Christians"[1]

The Star Prophecy was applied to the coming Messiah himself in contemporary radical Jewish documents, such as the apocalyptic War Scroll found at Qumran. In a pesher applied to the text from Numbers, the War Scroll's writer gives the following exegesis:

…by the hand of the Poor whom you have redeemed by Your Power and the peace of Your Mighty Wonders… by the hand of the Poor and those bent in the dust, You will deliver the enemies of all the lands and humble the mighty of the peoples to bring upon their heads the reward of the Wicked and justify the Judgement of Your Truth on all the sons of men.

Matthew has a habit of mixing up his OT references, hence Jesus on two donkeys etc.

 

[Craig B]

Your claims about the genesis of Judaism are, hmm, interesting to say the least. But could you flesh them out a bit? In particular:
1) Where did the stories come from that Nehemiah, Ezra et.al. compiled to be the Torah? Did they exist, or did Ezra invent them out of whole cloth?

If I may comment. No. Presumably he compiled existing tales and edited them.

2) In particular, where do the doublets come from that are so frequent in the Torah?

From the multiple sources allowed for at 1) above.

3) How do you reconcile the fact that the Samaritans have a Torah that is very, very similar to the Jewish one?

Contact and mutual influence. This would determine the existence of a Torah and its five component books, even if the precise versions of these books were somewhat different.

4) What were the Jews before Cyrus? Polytheistic? Henotheistic?

Either or both of these.

5) In particular, is your claim that Judaic monotheism was not so much invented by the Jews themselves, but was taken over from Zoroastrianism?

There's evidence for this in Deutero-Isaiah.

45:1 Thus saith the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; ... 5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: ... I am the Lord, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things ... 18 ... I am the Lord; and there is none else ... 21 ... there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Here we have the first clear statement both of the uniqueness of god, and the fact that this god does both good and evil. This rejection of the other gods may have been initiated in Babylon under Persian influence. However, Zoroastrianism has, in effect, two gods, one to do good and the other to do evil. This was only later adopted, in a somewhat diluted form, into Judaism and its derivatives.

 

[crhkrebs]

While generally I agree with your posts and they are most welcome, that particular assertion is technically incorrect. Actually Roman titles like "Germanicus" or "Africauns" or "Thrax" were based on the enemies that a general distinguished himself against, not the other way around. Essentially "Germanicus" would mean "gained his fame against the Germans", just like "Africanus" (e.g., Scipio) meant he gained his fame in Africa, NOT the other way around.

Germania was simply called after the Germani, a presumed tribe that lived around the Rhine. The term "Germani" is as old as Julius Caesar's account of his Gaul campaign, possibly the name the Celts gave those people, but either way it appears LONG before anyone was ever called "Germanicus". In fact, the first person to be called Germanicus happens a little after the time we turned the watches from BC to AD, too late to possibly explain why Caesar called those guys the "Germani".

Darn it, you ninja'd me Hans!

However, Julius Caesar is pretty accurate with the names of the various tribes. There is no specific tribe called the Germani. It is a catch all for all the Germanic tribes based on a common language. It is interesting that the Latin word may have Celtic/Gaulish roots.

According to Wiki, Germanicus became Germanicus in 9 BC. Interesting good deed was returning the lost Eagles of the Legion lost at Teutoberg. His bad deed was siring Caligula.

 

[crhkrebs]

Ah okay, so pointing out the Roman's principle method of killing people who had annoyed them is now a strawman?

Tsig was clearly talking about the crucifixion of Jesus. The straw man argument is you trying to conflate the veracity of His crucifixion with the existence of crucifixions on the whole.

There is no physical evidence of the Exodus, as there is no physical evidence for the crucifiction of Jesus. We are all well aware that there is plenty of evidence of the process of crucifiction as carried out by the Romans. Strawman.

 

[Leumas]

Your claims about the genesis of Judaism are, hmm, interesting to say the least. But could you flesh them out a bit? In particular:

1) Where did the stories come from that Nehemiah, Ezra et.al. compiled to be the Torah? Did they exist, or did Ezra invent them out of whole cloth?

2) In particular, where do the doublets come from that are so frequent in the Torah?

3) How do you reconcile the fact that the Samaritans have a Torah that is very, very similar to the Jewish one?

4) What were the Jews before Cyrus? Polytheistic? Henotheistic?

5) In particular, is your claim that Judaic monotheism was not so much invented by the Jews themselves, but was taken over from Zoroastrianism?

(the latter, of course, with due reverence to the resident Pharaoh who was the oldest known inventor of monotheism).

Good questions..... I shall soon write in length to explain more.... but for the meantime CraigB has put it very nicely.

I'll be too busy for a couple of days to write a long post.... but I do have a few extra things to say.... soon.

Thanks CraigB.... well put.

If I may comment. No. Presumably he compiled existing tales and edited them. From the multiple sources allowed for at 1) above. Contact and mutual influence. This would determine the existence of a Torah and its five component books, even if the precise versions of these books were somewhat different. Either or both of these. There's evidence for this in Deutero-Isaiah. Here we have the first clear statement both of the uniqueness of god, and the fact that this god does both good and evil. This rejection of the other gods may have been initiated in Babylon under Persian influence. However, Zoroastrianism has, in effect, two gods, one to do good and the other to do evil. This was only later adopted, in a somewhat diluted form, into Judaism and its derivatives.

 

[HansMustermann]

That's a very good point to point out. No single star, planet or other celestial body can "stand still" in the sky.

Well, there's one exception: Polaris. However, in Jesus' time:

even that did not apply.

Well, I think we can safely exclude Polaris either way, if the claim in Matthew is that it stopped over a hose in Bethlehem.

 

[Leumas]

Err............no.

Germany was not called Germania because of Germanicus Julius Caesar, anymore than Africa was named after Scipio Africanus, or Asia was named after Lucius Cornelius Scipio Asiaticus.

The name Germanicus was an agnomen given to him after his victories in Germania. Likewise with the Scipios after the battles of Zama and Magnesia, respectively. They are honorary titles based on the place of their military exploits.

The name Germany comes from an old Latin word from which the modern words "germaine" and "germinal" are derived. It meant "brotherly" or "related to". It most likely meant that the various Germanic tribes all spoke a related, common language.

By the way, saying Germanicus conquered Germania is a bit of an exaggeration. The Romans barely made inroads east of the Rhine. And the correct name is Deutschland, from the old German "diut" meaning "the people".

Pedantic mode off.

Thanks.... yes I'm wrong.... I am blaming it on my school teacher 100 years ago.... he is long gone now so he cannot deny it, and I'm sticking to my story..... it is not my fault.... it is his.


Also as a disclaimer... I hated history when I was at school.... I am an engineer.... we do not need history

Now I LOVE history and I am trying to learn some.... but the old grey cells are not as vibrant as they used to be..... also as an engineer we tended to drink too much in the good old days.... not good for old grey cells.

 

[HansMustermann]

Or, given gMatt's obsession with Jeebus fulfilling OT Prophecy, I'd bet it has something to do with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Prophecy



Matthew has a habit of mixing up his OT references, hence Jesus on two donkeys etc.

I wouldn't be surprised. As you say, Matt is a bit obsessed with fulfilling stuff from the OT.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Does that trip include a re-eneaction of the Golden Calf episode? Have you agreed on how many people can be killed for worshipping the Golden Calf? And I presume as organizer of the trip, you get to do the killing?

I raised many of the same points, and was told I was over-thinking it. They just want to go meed 'god' in the wilderness...but not too far from a shower.

 

[Leumas]

I raised many of the same points, and was told i was over-thinking it. They just want to go meed 'god' in the wilderness...but not too far from a shower.

Maybe you should use a tablet to play this REALLY GOOD movie

It is available for streaming on Amazon..... nice nice movie.... I think it would go well with the kind of סוכות‎ trip you are planning .... not quite traditional to watch a movie but hey!

 

[Slowvehicle]

Maybe you should use a tablet to play this REALLY GOOD movie

It is available for streaming on Amazon..... nice nice movie.... I think it would go well with the kind of סוכות‎ trip you are planning .... not quite traditional to watch a movie but hey!

"Yeahbbut, that's all 'jewish' stuff--we wanna experience the real 'god'."

Nice people, but not the sharpest crayons in the box...

 

[Leumas]

"Yeahbbut, that's all 'jewish' stuff--we wanna experience the real 'god'."

Nice people, but not the sharpest crayons in the box...

One way is to do it the Jesus way.... starve and thirst for 40 days.... that is a GUARANTEED meeting of god either as a hallucination after a couple of days or if he exists then in person after 10 days.

But hey... it's one way to make the trip cheaper.

Or you can do it the John way.... wear a loin cloth and only eat locusts and honey if you can fight off the bees.