The Exodus Myth

[MG1962]

Yeah, I've had "discussions" with professors about my use of that term. I started to include a note in my papers to save time.

And to be fair the period of history you mainly work in can lend itself to that. Especially as some of the sources still alive where present at the event.

 

[Rincewind]

You mean, The Last Days of the JREF.

Actually - according the Paul Bethke: the END...

And it's coming soon!

(That's up to another 2,000 years)

 

[pakeha]

Actually - according the Paul Bethke: the END...

And it's coming soon!

(That's up to another 2,000 years)

Actually, if memory serves me on a lazy Sunday afternoon, PB disclaimed any relation between the END and TLDoJREF.

 

[I Ratant]

Only an engineer looks at extra-atmosphere hovering

Clearly not pathetic enough to know that some planets display retorgrade motion that will create the optical illusion they are hovering over a specific point over the horizon

.
Found (through the magic of Photoshop) a communications dish hovering over a specific point. Took a reading on the direction it was from the photo location.
Walked a bit, and took another reading of the direction from that location.
Plotting the azimuths and noting where they cross, the dish IS at there!
Now, doing the same for an extra-atmosphere object.. you've weaseled in a planet.. one can take a reading of the azimuth to any of them from a point, and move a bit, and take another azimuth. Where these two lines would cross is where the planet is.
A large number of millions of miles off the earth, you may agree with.
Over a specific point ON the earth, as the dish is, hardly!
No matter where you view the dish from, going towards it results in arriving at the dish!
Going towards a planet just results in a circumnavigation of the earth.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Paul,

Please read post 150... according to your reference they were in Kadesh-Barnea for 38 years - please note - YOUR reference.

As I wrote in my first post, this site has been extensively excavated and nothing was found.

38 years of residence by a huge number of people, and not even broken pot sherds?

I realise that you need this whole story to be true, but going to ridiculous lengths doesn't do anything for your credibility.

Come out from under the bridge...

I gave you a reference to the fact that they travelled around the desert stopping at some 42 places—not in one place for 38 years.
How come you fail to see this?
►Num 33:5 The Israelites left Rameses and camped at Succoth.
Num 33:6 They left Succoth and camped at Etham, on the edge of the desert.
Num 33:7 They left Etham, turned back to Pi Hahiroth, to the east of Baal Zephon, and camped near Migdol.
Num 33:8 They left Pi Hahiroth and passed through the sea into the desert, and when they had travelled for three days in the Desert of Etham, they camped at Marah.
Num 33:9 They left Marah and went to Elim, where there were twelve springs and seventy palm trees, and they camped there.
Num 33:10 They left Elim and camped by the Red Sea.
Num 33:11 They left the Red Sea and camped in the Desert of Sin.
Num 33:12 They left the Desert of Sin and camped at Dophkah.
Num 33:13 They left Dophkah and camped at Alush.
Num 33:14 They left Alush and camped at Rephidim, where there was no water for the people to drink.
Num 33:15 They left Rephidim and camped in the Desert of Sinai.
Num 33:16 They left the Desert of Sinai and camped at Kibroth Hattaavah.
Num 33:17 They left Kibroth Hattaavah and camped at Hazeroth.
Num 33:18 They left Hazeroth and camped at Rithmah.
Num 33:19 They left Rithmah and camped at Rimmon Perez.
Num 33:20 They left Rimmon Perez and camped at Libnah.
Num 33:21 They left Libnah and camped at Rissah.
Num 33:22 They left Rissah and camped at Kehelathah.
Num 33:23 They left Kehelathah and camped at Mount Shepher.
Num 33:24 They left Mount Shepher and camped at Haradah.
Num 33:25 They left Haradah and camped at Makheloth.
Num 33:26 They left Makheloth and camped at Tahath.
Num 33:27 They left Tahath and camped at Terah.
Num 33:28 They left Terah and camped at Mithcah.
Num 33:29 They left Mithcah and camped at Hashmonah.
Num 33:30 They left Hashmonah and camped at Moseroth.
Num 33:31 They left Moseroth and camped at Bene Jaakan.
Num 33:32 They left Bene Jaakan and camped at Hor Haggidgad.
Num 33:33 They left Hor Haggidgad and camped at Jotbathah.
Num 33:34 They left Jotbathah and camped at Abronah.
Num 33:35 They left Abronah and camped at Ezion Geber.
Num 33:36 They left Ezion Geber and camped at Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.
Num 33:37 They left Kadesh and camped at Mount Hor, on the border of Edom.
Num 33:38 At the LORD's command Aaron the priest went up Mount Hor, where he died on the first day of the fifth month of the fortieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt.
Num 33:39 Aaron was a hundred and twenty-three years old when he died on Mount Hor.
Num 33:40 The Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev of Canaan, heard that the Israelites were coming.
Num 33:41 They left Mount Hor and camped at Zalmonah.
Num 33:42 They left Zalmonah and camped at Punon.
Num 33:43 They left Punon and camped at Oboth.
Num 33:44 They left Oboth and camped at Iye Abarim, on the border of Moab.
Num 33:45 They left Iyim and camped at Dibon Gad.
Num 33:46 They left Dibon Gad and camped at Almon Diblathaim.
Num 33:47 They left Almon Diblathaim and camped in the mountains of Abarim, near Nebo.
Num 33:48 They left the mountains of Abarim and camped on the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho.
Num 33:49 There on the plains of Moab they camped along the Jordan from Beth Jeshimoth to Abel Shittim.

So now what bridge are you referring to?

 

[MG1962]

Now, doing the same for an extra-atmosphere object.. you've weaseled in a planet..

Well the planet was weaseled in 398 years ago by Johannes Kepler. Who proposed the theory I am expressing in 1616. He calculated a fortuitous conjunction between the planets Jupiter and Saturn as the most probable reason behind the excited reaction of Magi.

As for the rest of your post. Parallax errors of planets can not be measured by eye. The largest change measurable is Mars with 11.87 arc seconds using a 2150 mile baseline.

 

[Rincewind]

I gave you a reference to the fact that they travelled around the desert stopping at some 42 places—not in one place for 38 years.
How come you fail to see this?

I saw that - thanks for your condescension

If you actually read the reference you mentioned, you'll see that it says that they were in Kadesh-Barnea for 38 years.

I don't see how much clearer it can be.

 

[Leumas]

Yes - at the time of Exodus the place had been reduced to a ghost town. It slowly began to rebuild until the Babylonian invasion both destroyed the city and sent the population into exile.

Later Cyrus the Great re-established the city on behalf of the Jews after allowing them to return to their homeland. The Hebrew scholars (at the time keen to point to God's intervention on behalf of his reformed people) put together the Battle of Jericho to show priory

Well the planet was weaseled in 398 years ago by Johannes Kepler. Who proposed the theory I am expressing in 1616. He calculated a fortuitous conjunction between the planets Jupiter and Saturn as the most probable reason behind the excited reaction of Magi.

As for the rest of your post. Parallax errors of planets can not be measured by eye. The largest change measurable is Mars with 11.87 arc seconds using a 2150 mile baseline.

And to be fair the period of history you mainly work in can lend itself to that. Especially as some of the sources still alive where present at the event.

 

[I Ratant]

Well the planet was weaseled in 398 years ago by Johannes Kepler. Who proposed the theory I am expressing in 1616. He calculated a fortuitous conjunction between the planets Jupiter and Saturn as the most probable reason behind the excited reaction of Magi.

As for the rest of your post. Parallax errors of planets can not be measured by eye. The largest change measurable is Mars with 11.87 arc seconds using a 2150 mile baseline.

.
IOW, you have no answer to the "hovering" of the "star" over a particular dwelling in Bethlehem.
Here's the "star" on the horizon from the AV Mall... (labelled Repeater Station.)
From a short base line, maybe 1000 feet, the station is miles away.
Taking two azimuths to it, and looking at those azimuths overlayed on an images of Bethlehem, just which of those hovels is THE manger... obviously dependent on the approach angle by the Magi, who, like just about everyone else in the book, have no existence outside the book.

 

[Paul Bethke]

I saw that - thanks for your condescension

If you actually read the reference you mentioned, you'll see that it says that they were in Kadesh-Barnea for 38 years.

I don't see how much clearer it can be.

The part I refer to is equally clear

In fact, scripture specifically tells us the day they left, the day they entered the Wilderness of Sin, the day they arrived at Sinai and the total number of days the exodus took. There is a wealth of information in scripture about many of the 50 exodus locations.

So what do we conclude—they travelled all over some 50 places recorded, and not 42 as I first stated.
Any way the whole thing is quite interesting.
No offence intended.

 

[pakeha]

[ . . . ]So what do we conclude—they travelled all over some 50 places recorded, and not 42 as I first stated.
Any way the whole thing is quite interesting.
No offence intended.

Of course it's interesting, in the same way any fiction can be interesting.

 

[Leumas]

This.

Thank you, Leumas!

@Leumas,

Respect!

I bow to your scholarship, and thank you for fleshing out the skeleton that was my initial post.

Oh, and I agree regarding "Ol' Abe", of course...

Thank YOU

 

[MG1962]

.
IOW, you have no answer to the "hovering" of the "star" over a particular dwelling in Bethlehem.
Here's the "star" on the horizon from the AV Mall... (labelled Repeater Station.)
From a short base line, maybe 1000 feet, the station is miles away.
Taking two azimuths to it, and looking at those azimuths overlayed on an images of Bethlehem, just which of those hovels is THE manger... obviously dependent on the approach angle by the Magi, who, like just about everyone else in the book, have no existence outside the book.

How high does the object have to be, to be detected from over 500 miles away?

 

[Paul Bethke]

I saw that - thanks for your condescension

If you actually read the reference you mentioned, you'll see that it says that they were in Kadesh-Barnea for 38 years.

I don't see how much clearer it can be.

Very strange that a person would contradict themselves—I only saw it when you pointed it out.
Does that discredit everything else that states that they stayed at 50 different places—I think not.

They spend 38 continuous years at Kadesh Barnea (they do not leave and come back), then depart for the Jordan in the 40th year.

Strange, but true.

 

[I Ratant]

How high does the object have to be, to be detected from over 500 miles away?

.
Where is the object in the East that has the lookers for it go west?

 

[MG1962]

[qimg]http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/Circular4.gif[/qimg]

I am sure there is a point to this - I am just failing to see it

 

[HansMustermann]

Well the planet was weaseled in 398 years ago by Johannes Kepler. Who proposed the theory I am expressing in 1616. He calculated a fortuitous conjunction between the planets Jupiter and Saturn as the most probable reason behind the excited reaction of Magi.

Which is BS. And generally, nothing says 'just peddling BS' like having to dig up an unsupported supposition from 1616, and still not showing the maths.

Because God knows astrophysics didn't advance in that time. A calculation based on CIRCULAR orbits, which is what Kepler was proposing all the way to his death, would of course actually predict planet positions when we now know they have elliptical orbits and precession. No, really

But really it IS dumb rationalization BS. Even when going retrograde, Jupiter actually goes backwards, before starting going forwards again. It does not hover exactly over one place for months on end. Essentially it does an S shape in the sky, with the moments it actually is still (as in, zero angular velocity) being measured in fractions of a second. After that it starts moving too much to pinpoint anything on Earth. The idea that it would pinpoint exactly one barn for months on end isn't astronomy, it's just pulling BS rationalizations out of the ass.

Requiring a CONJUNCTION of planets to stand still for that long is, of course, even more ridiculous.

Plus, Jupiter standing still wouldn't be some special event to get the Magi moving, as it is a normal event that happens for 4 months every 9 months or so. You don't go look for a messiah for an event that happens every 9 months. It coinciding with another planet they tracked and knew where it was, also wouldn't pass for "OMG new star in the sky" any more than it would for you if it happened today.

Not that it would help if even if it actually stood still in the sky, since at a circumference of 40,000 km or so, an error of even a second of even a second of arc, i.e., 1/(360x60x60), i.e., far finer than they could POSSIBLY measure, means 30m off. An error of a minute of arc (STILL above what they could actually measure) is 1800m, or almost 2km. The very idea that that would point out a specific barn is stupid squared.

So, yeah, that's just BS rationalization.

If you're gonna claim some kind of being right by virtue of astronomy, then frikken actually do astronomy, which in turn means MATHS. Don't just pull vague rationalizations out of the ass.

 

[HansMustermann]

Sure as long as you are prepared to put the writings of Immanuel Kant in the fantasy section of your bookshop

If you want to claim that there is some kind of philosophical meaning to that early-iron-age fairy tale, like all claims of the "X exists" type, you get the burden of proof to show what it is. Sorry, you still don't get to be right by just vaguely hinting at some deeper meaning.

 

[Leumas]

I am sure there is a point to this - I am just failing to see it

Exactly!

You cannot see that what you are doing is nothing but circular illogic.

You state things as if they are historical facts to support the Biblical myths but the only place those "facts" you state are found are in the Bible.

How do you know that Cyrus let the Jews return? How do you know that the "returnees" were in fact Jews or even Canaanites? How do you know that the Babylonians removed the entire population from Jerusalem? And how do you know that it remained empty?

How do you know that the captives remained alive or remained intact as a group or were carried to just Babylon instead of dispersed over the wide expanse of the Babylonia Empire? How many did return and how do you know? How many remained and how do you know?

How do you know the ones carried away were in fact Jews and not Canaanites or Priestly class of one cult of the wider regional numerous cults? How do you know that even if they were real returnees that they were not allowed to return just because they were CONVERTS to Judaism which was a religion they learnt while in captivity?

How do you know that the religion they brought over with them was in any way really the same religion of the people not just the religion of a small cult that upon “returning” imposed their sect to the exclusion of the others that were there before and after the Babylonian invasion (Just like Christianity as an Imperial religion supplanted local gods and religions throughout the Roman Empire by Imperial FIAT?

HOW....HOW do you know any of this? Are there extra-biblical sources that verify any of this without INTERPRETATION and CONSTRUING emanating from a mindset rotted with years of inculcation and indoctrination in Biblical circular reasoning, biases and wishful thinking.

 

[HansMustermann]

How high does the object have to be, to be detected from over 500 miles away?

Horizon in km is approximately 3.57 times the square root of the height in metres. Solving that trivial equation on a back of the napkin, a height of 20km gives you a horizon distance of 504km.

Oh, wait, you asked for miles. That's about 800km, so the height would have to be about 50km.

Yep, that's inside the atmosphere all right.

But of course, you'd know that, if you took the effort and actually did the astronomy part, which means MATHS.