The Electric Revolution

[Rolfe]

Electric buses work fine, both in cities and for longer routes. Here's one charging up at Fort William.



I have no idea why that picture is on its side.



Or that one.

In contrast, pretty much every time hydrogen buses have been tried they have been an expensive disaster. I read an article recently detailing the tragic history of these attempts. And yet they don't stop trying. The push to go on burning fossil fuels just won't stop.

 

[Dabop]

There's no doubt in my mind that electric buses can work. I've been riding on buses connected to overhead wires my entire life. I just discussed how this small rural bus system tried them and their experiences.

Sydney has tried natural gas and hydrogen buses- never been a success longterm (hydrogen supply is VERY variable and not stable, as the majority comes from crude oil refineries as a 'waste product' and its price therefore can vary quite dramatically....)

The Sydney buses are coming up on their first decade of use for the oldest in the fleet, with no issues at all and even their range isn't an issue (with 400km plus in stock trim- there are a couple of 'long range' ones being trialed on the Newcastle freeway run I think- I heard they were getting them, haven't heard if they actually have them yet) with double that- 800km at 100kph before needing a charge...

 

[acbytesla]

Sydney has tried natural gas and hydrogen buses- never been a success longterm (hydrogen supply is VERY variable and not stable, as the majority comes from crude oil refineries as a 'waste product' and its price therefore can vary quite dramatically....)

The Sydney buses are coming up on their first decade of use for the oldest in the fleet, with no issues at all and even their range isn't an issue (with 400km plus in stock trim- there are a couple of 'long range' ones being trialed on the Newcastle freeway run I think- I heard they were getting them, haven't heard if they actually have them yet) with double that- 800km at 100kph before needing a charge...

I agree 100%. I particularly expressed my skepticism on the hydrogen buses. Everything that mak3s hydrogen attractive also makes it unattractive. But this little county is trying it. My guess is they got some grant.

 

[SteveAitch]

Heck, there are even electric buses in the Staines area, which is probably a bit smaller than Sydney......
BYD Electric Bus by SteveAitch, on Flickr

Eeee, I remember when Manchester had trolley-busses, then big ol' diesels and now they have trams. Ah well, plus ça change, as they say down the old Dog and Duck.

 

[8enotto]

Mex City runs trolley busses yet. Lets them use the same power infrastructure as the Metro .

 

[novaphile]

Adelaide has been trialling an electric bus since 2023, and we're expecting a further 60 to be delivered next year.

It's rather fun when it silently slides up to the bus stop.

At the time, to make it carbon neutral to run, they installed a large number of solar panels at the depot to generate electricity during the day.

The bus recharges overnight.

 

[EHocking]

Brisbanes electric bus system have overhead pantograph fast chargers at the end of each bus route.
Fast chargers take 6 mins to do their job. The buses are also slow charged overnight at the depot.
New to Brisbane as they started in Jan this year, and are only two routes (21kms) linking the outer suburbs to the CBD using 60 buses.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I had a conversation today with the head of Lewis County transit agency. (Lewjs County is a mostly rural county South of Metropolitan Seattle and Tacoma) They have about 12 bus lines. They tried electric buses, but they worked poorly. The weight of the buses were too much of a drain. And the charging pad required a bus to be perfectly above the pad or it wouldn't charge effectively. The EV buses have been discontinued.

They have recently bought 3 hydrogen buses and the county built a hydrogen pumping station for the buses and other County vehicles. They will begin trying them out in two months.

One bad purchase after another. They need a better consultant.

 

[acbytesla]

I have been of th.

One bad purchase after another. They need a better consultant.

I pretty much agree.

 

[Orphia Nay]

The next generation of Formula E (Gen 4) has been previewed.

https://racingnews365.com/breaking-formula-e-reveal-stunning-gen4-car-in-major-performance-step

"Not only will it feature permanent all-wheel drive (the current Gen3 features temporary all-wheel drive), it will also produce 600 kW of power – equivalent to 815 bhp.

"In addition, in private FIA testing with a mule car, over 200 mph (321 km/h) has been comfortably achieved, with a 210 mph milestone also reported in the paddock.

"While the car does have a minimum weight of 1,012 kg, its power output means that 0-60 mph (0-100 km/h) will still be possible in around 1.8 seconds, potentially even faster. That is 30% faster [acceleration] than an F1 car."

Top speed still isn't higher than F1, but it's getting up there.

These cars will debut in races in the season beginning late 2026.

 

[Rolfe]

Electric HGVs are not the future - they're the present.

Record-breaking electric truck delivery beats diesel equivalent

The stakeholders said the electric prime mover was able to reduce the total trip time by 20 minutes each way compared with the diesel equivalent.

bigrigs.com.au

 

[acbytesla]

Electric HGVs are not the future - they're the present.

Record-breaking electric truck delivery beats diesel equivalent

The stakeholders said the electric prime mover was able to reduce the total trip time by 20 minutes each way compared with the diesel equivalent.

bigrigs.com.au

View attachment 65648

The issue that slows the development of EVs has never been the motors. It has always been the batteries. The range, the speed of recharging, the price and weight are the only obstacles slowing the demise of internal combustion engines.

The increase in the energy density and the decrease in cost of batteries has made EVs a real option for personal transportation.

The simple fact that 99.99 of all freight trains around the world today use electric locomotion is superior. They either use diesel engines to create electricity or use overhead wires from the grid to power the electric motors that drive the wheels.

Electric motors can be faster. They can provide more horsepower and torque. They are also substantially simpler, more reliable and more efficient than internal combustion engines. And this has been true for close to a 100 years.

And what's really amazing is that engineers are designing better electric motors too. Brushless DC motors BLDC, axial flux, YASA. They are lighter, more compact, smoother, faster, and more efficient.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

The issue that slows the development of EVs has never been the motors. It has always been the batteries. The range, the speed of recharging, the price and weight are the only obstacles slowing the demise of internal combustion engines.

And we see that even with this handicap an electric truck may do the job faster, while running and maintenance costs are also lower. The savings may be a 'game changer' for trucking companies. Diesel trucks may still be better for long haul, but even this is going away with battery improvements, as electric trucks can now go for longer than the driver. An electric truck can recharge while being loaded and unloaded, while a diesel truck has to go to a gas station to refuel. With the right planning, recharging an electric truck can effectively take no time at all.

Electric trucks are a little heavier, but this only affects carrying capacity with dense loads. A higher purchase price doesn't matter much either, as it will be written off over a few years and so reduce tax liability, while costing a lot less in ongoing maintenance and downtime.

The increase in the energy density and the decrease in cost of batteries has made EVs a real option for personal transportation.

The simple fact that 99.99 of all freight trains around the world today use electric locomotion is superior. They either use diesel engines to create electricity or use overhead wires from the grid to power the electric motors that drive the wheels.

Electric motors can be faster. They can provide more horsepower and torque. They are also substantially simpler, more reliable and more efficient than internal combustion engines. And this has been true for close to a 100 years.

This is why large diesel locomotives switched to electric motors early on. A train needs enormous torque to get it rolling. Steam engines had that, but a diesel engine with gearbox doesn't. With Diesel-electric the engine can run at optimum revs producing electricity which the motors convert into torque - no gearbox to break and far more efficient. Another advantage is dynamic braking, which dissipates the energy in resistor banks rather than brake shoes.

When combined with the lower rolling friction of rails and lower air resistance of trains, their overall efficiency is 3~4 times higher than road trucks. That makes them much better for the environment. Only problem is you still need road trucks for that last mile, which is where electric trucks come in.

 

[Rolfe]

I never knew that!

 

[Dabop]

BYD are releasing the Seagull in NZ (and looking likely to in Australia as well)

Same size as a Toyota Yaris (popular city car here in Australia) and at the same price even- literally price parity has been achieved....
In NZ its being sold for $29k NZ, Australia for under $25k Au ($16k US) for the base model...
Interestingly Richard can get comfortable behind the wheel- and he's a big boy....

from Seagull in NZ

 

[acbytesla]

And we see that even with this handicap an electric truck may do the job faster, while running and maintenance costs are also lower. The savings may be a 'game changer' for trucking companies. Diesel trucks may still be better for long haul, but even this is going away with battery improvements, as electric trucks can now go for longer than the driver. An electric truck can recharge while being loaded and unloaded, while a diesel truck has to go to a gas station to refuel. With the right planning, recharging an electric truck can effectively take no time at all.

Electric trucks are a little heavier, but this only affects carrying capacity with dense loads. A higher purchase price doesn't matter much either, as it will be written off over a few years and so reduce tax liability, while costing a lot less in ongoing maintenance and downtime.


This is why large diesel locomotives switched to electric motors early on. A train needs enormous torque to get it rolling. Steam engines had that, but a diesel engine with gearbox doesn't. With Diesel-electric the engine can run at optimum revs producing electricity which the motors convert into torque - no gearbox to break and far more efficient. Another advantage is dynamic braking, which dissipates the energy in resistor banks rather than brake shoes.

When combined with the lower rolling friction of rails and lower air resistance of trains, their overall efficiency is 3~4 times higher than road trucks. That makes them much better for the environment. Only problem is you still need road trucks for that last mile, which is where electric trucks come in.

It always comes down to the value proposition. What is the cost? How convenient is it? Is it safe? What am I paying for? What makes the most sense for the application? Long haul trucking, diesel still probably wins. But I definitely think that it loses its advantage with short haul. If I can drive the semi during the day and charge it overnight every night the inconvenience of charging disappears.

 

[Darat]

And we see that even with this handicap an electric truck may do the job faster, while running and maintenance costs are also lower. The savings may be a 'game changer' for trucking companies. Diesel trucks may still be better for long haul, but even this is going away with battery improvements, as electric trucks can
now go for longer than the driver. ...snip...

That's the crucial metric for the UK and the EU. A HGV's driver's driving time is strictly controlled and very much monitored, an electric HGV would only need to have a range of 4.5 hours of driving as that's the maximum time a driver can go without a break before there is a mandated rest period of 45 minutes. (There are some tweaks that can be done that allows a bit more flexibility for scheduling, traffic conditions etc.)

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... An electric truck can recharge while being loaded and unloaded, while a diesel truck has to go to a gas station to refuel...

To be fair, the tractor is a separate entity from the trailer that needs unloading and reloading. If you are a truck driver, your bit is the tractor, not the load. Once you deliver the loaded trailer, you can uncouple and be off to your next job.

So I think it's still fair to compare refuelling and recharging times.

 

[Rolfe]

This is all still very much in development. Unlike the ICE, major advances are being made all the time. The mistake people often make, as in the synthetic fuels thread, is to argue as if the current state of play is the zenith of EV capabilities. Oh, EVs can't tow a caravan. Or go more than 250 miles without charging. Or compete at F1 level. And so on. Most of the stock objections are already history.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

This is all still very much in development.

Yes, and electric HGVs absolutely will be the norm in future. But do note that just a couple of days ago you said (or perhaps quoted someone saying) they were not the future - they're the present. That's overhyping it.