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The Electric Comet theory

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(...) by Wallace Thornhill:

Cometary material was "formed in a star" is right if he means the fact that heavy elements are always formed in stars. But who knows with Wallace Thornhill? He may mean actual rocky material for comets.
Cometary material being processed in gas giants or rocky planets is ridiculous.

Thornhill's point, which he explains in the very same article you refer to, is based on the lab tested probability that plasmoids can diverge/fission into two or more objects due to increased/varying electrical stress - and the hypothesis that stars and gas giants could do the same thing under external influence. It ties in with the Electric Star hypothesis, which I'm sure you are familiar with and have a "debunk" thread on somewhere around here. And more importantly, described in the hypothesis: "Comets have not undergone “an evolutionary process.” They are the debris resulting from electrical discharge sculpting of planetary surfaces." You don't seem to have understood Thornhill's point in this regard.

Neither gives off cometary material. A little thing called gravity prevents it.


Heh, and for the same reason, there can't be no such thing as Martian or lunar meteorites or dust fountains at the Moon? What's your logic? Aren't relative magnitudes between forces of significance in various scenarios?
 
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Sorry Siggy_G, I do NOT ask for "sources for the hypothesis", whether "in essence" or not! :mad:

My question is very clear; it asks about details of how the "predictions" were derived.

As I stated in the post you replied to, I hadn't studied the hypothesis extensively yet, and was hoping you could find the answer in the source material.

To my current knowledge, I don't know the numbers, but Thornhill's words are: “the energetic effects of the encounter should exceed that of a simple physical impact," (I think NASA did estimate the impact values somewhere, and Thornhill predicts a comparative exceeding amount due to additional energies).

Now, is the exact amount of energy predicted vital for the approach that discharges occured in the Deep Impact scenario? Sequential predictions of the scenario as well as confirming visual observation and data are first and foremost of importance. The magnitudes would be secondary (and crowning if being correct, given one knows the start values of the scenario). Did NASA predict the energy amount (with an established model mind you) and hit it on the nail? If not, did it alter the current view of comets, because of that? So why do you expect the EC hypothesis to exceed the standard model both in observational prediction AND numeral/magnitude prediction? On a side note, further measurements from the comet would be needed in order to calculate the energy release. One would need to know the approximate surface charge for starters, if it even is homogenous (doubtly).

Now, I read a few posts by RC stating that the sequence of the flashes weren't like interpreted by Thornhill – and that would cause more a problem in regards to predictions rather than any calculated energy magnitudes. I will need to read into that.
 
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Why? Because calculating the incoming current is dependant on understanding the reasons for the first set of “Whys” before you can make the necessary approximations.
OK, hold that thought (you'll need it later).
Nope. It’s fiendishly complex :)
Again, OK (but hold that thought).
Well, this….Mathematics and the kinetic theory of ordinary Gases as applied to Plasma Physics The theories were mathematically elegant and claimed to derive all of the properties of a plasma from first principles. [...]
Ditto.
Why bother? Just read the links, it's all there! The problems are explained very well.
Because, if you don't do a Zeuzzzzz on us, but rather take BeAChooser as your model, you'll end up making a robust case that the ideas are inconsistent (and you may find they are extremely inconsistent).
63,000,000 W/m2 approximately but this is not the point IMHO.

To state the obvious: the mainstream see the Sun as the source of the energy in a gravitational fusion furnace and EU/PC theory see the Sun, as a focal point only, in a plasma "Z" pinch on an Galactic Birkeland current, so the powers coming externally.

Kind of fundamentally different don’t you think?
Good, I mean it's good that you were able to make that estimate, and good that you have clearly stated exactly what you are about to show cannot be! :)

Let me ask you a question:

Imagine this: a single electric arc welding machine operating continuously, the details aren’t important. Now further imagine billions of them operating, closely packed, around a globe of unknown diameter or substance. An observer some 93 units away can measure, heat, light, UV, X-rays etc and the, apparent, diameter of this phenomena. He can calculate the energy output from this display as 63,000,000 W/m2.

Now the observer is told it’s an electric arc process, and that is all. Can he calculate the current supply needed to power this with any degree of accuracy or not? If not, why not?

[...]
Well, I see that Ziggurat beat me to it, but you're definitely asking the right sort of question, well done! :D

In this next step that you will be taking there are two parts; you're going to do two separate sets of calculations, partly so you have a consistency check.

First one (second one to be done after this is finished): what is a current?

Let's assume the current that powers the Sun, per the EU idea, is electrons, nothing but electrons, and only electrons (you can relax this assumption later, and find that it makes no difference to the conclusion you will reach; namely, that the EC idea just does not add up).

So, how do electrons transfer energy to the Sun?

The end result - the output, in essence - is electromagnetic radiation, whose total energy per second is ~4 x 10^26 J.

The details of how incoming-electrons-as-current get converted to photons need not concern you now, all you need to assume is that the process is up to 100% efficient (i.e. up to all the energy the electrons deliver becomes photons, in other words, energy is conserved).

So, what is the energy that electrons, as a current, can deliver? What is the energy they transport?

You should answer that question, but in the interests of time, I'll say it's just their kinetic energy (before: electrons moving; after: electrons not moving); if you think they transport energy in another form, to the Sun, please say so (and at least briefly describe what it is).

What, then, is the kinetic energy of an electon? Let's say its speed, immediately before being brought to a standstill, is v, with respect the Sun's surface (where it comes to a complete standstill). The answer is .... ?

Now what's the maximum kinetic energy an electron can have?
 
Guilty, but it’s not just the EU/PC crowd is it?
I don't see anyone else here making wild claims whilst not having the slightest idea about the difference between astronomy and cosmology.

Your not being fair here Tubbthin. Read again what I actually said HERE
I've read it again and have concluded that I was being entirely fair.

The EU/PC theory actually has a very good explanation for the mainly circular and other features of craters and they can be reproduced in labs SEE HERE
No they don't and no they can't. Unless you can show me anybody spark-machiningg Tempel 1. Ever seen a light bulb? You know the ones with the tungsten filament. They give off light you know. Just like the Sun. Therefore I propose that the Sun is a heated tungsten filament.:rolleyes:

Sure, the mainstream has an explanation too, which I wasn’t fully aware of; although I doubt the lab results are as good as electrical discharge in not shattering a fragile comet. Is there any lab results you can link too
:rolleyes:
 
As I stated in the post you replied to, I hadn't studied the hypothesis extensively yet, and was hoping you could find the answer in the source material.
Nice thought, but no, that's not at all how it works.

To my current knowledge, I don't know the numbers, but Thornhill's words are: “the energetic effects of the encounter should exceed that of a simple physical impact," (I think NASA did estimate the impact values somewhere, and Thornhill predicts a comparative exceeding amount due to additional energies).
It would be nice if you'd actually checked the TPOD with the predictions, the one that Haig provided a link to (well, he didn't - the link was broken - but it's easy enough to find)! :mad:

You realise, I suppose, that you're damaging your credibility, all on your own?

Now, is the exact amount of energy predicted vital for the approach that discharges occured in the Deep Impact scenario? Sequential predictions of the scenario as well as confirming visual observation and data are first and foremost of importance. The magnitudes would be secondary (and crowning if being correct, given one knows the start values of the scenario). Did NASA predict the energy amount (with an established model mind you) and hit it on the nail? If not, did it alter the current view of comets, because of that? So why do you expect the EC hypothesis to exceed the standard model both in observational prediction AND numeral/magnitude prediction? On a side note, further measurements from the comet would be needed in order to calculate the energy release. One would need to know the approximate surface charge for starters, if it even is homogenous (doubtly).

Now, I read a few posts by RC stating that the sequence of the flashes weren't like interpreted by Thornhill – and that would cause more a problem in regards to predictions rather than any calculated energy magnitudes. I will need to read into that.
You still don't get it, do you Siggy_G?

This is the SCIENCE part of the JREF!!

Haig - and Sol88 before him (and perhaps others too) - introduced the Deep Impact "predictions"; the default assumption in THIS SECTION is that we discuss things within the framework of SCIENCE.

And what is one key aspect of science? It is - to repeat (go back and read my first post on this, the one you replied to) - that one's published work needs to be capable of being checked, objectively, and independently.

My question - which you still have not answered (neither has Haig, so you're in good company) - is can you show (objectively) that the "predictions" can be independently verified? If not, then whatever they may be, they are not science (got it?)!

But it gets worse, for both you and Thornhill (and Talbott?).

Not only are no sources cited, no methods (other than a guess) detailed, no references given, but "NASA" is used as if it - a government agency - is a scientist (or a team of scientists)! :jaw-dropp

Dude, "NASA" does not publish scientific papers!! Individual researchers do, either on their own or as part of a team!!! And, I might add, they put their names on what they publish; on the "predictions" webpage we read of "electrical theorists", and the page itself does not say who the author(s) is (are).

EU zealots (or robots) never hesitate to scream about how the work of their heros is pure unadulterated science (and, to be fair, a great deal of that by Birkeland and Alfven, to mention a couple of names, is); however, when even the most cursory of scans is done on the reams of webpages these robots spam so many internet discussion forums with, it screams anything but SCIENCE.
 
Perhaps you can elaborate further on how a light bulb (or neon light) works so you get the analogy right? :)

Perhaps you can provide the actual evidence for the current flows needed. Besides the sun blowing apart at relativistic speeds.

So what sort of electron flow would you need?
Why does the solar wind consist of negative, positive and neutral particles?

Where is there more than a hand wavy analogy?
 
:mad:

You realise, I suppose, that you're damaging your credibility, all on your own?
You still don't get it, do you Siggy_G?
This is the SCIENCE part of the JREF!!

Oh great. What I get is that you seem very angry, accusive and even proudly think that any post by you or others within this section is pure SCIENCE. You and others have asked questions or implied things which I have tried to respond to in my previous posts, some of which is referenced to source material.
 
Both hypothesis (hypotheses?), sun is an incandescent bulb or a fluorescent tube are on equal footing in terms of predictions, and subsequent scientific testing. That is to say, they are in no way shape or form a possible power source for the star that is our sun.
 
I noticed you threw in this one. What do you mean by it and what is your source? If you mean "academic fraud" by "not agreeing with the academic consensus" or "going against the mainstream", then yes, but then the term "fraud" is misleading and simply wrong.
Well known to those who've read the huge amount of EU material posted by zealots/robots, here, in this very section of JREF.

Where to start?

How about that 'electric comet' PDF, the one which claims, on its very first page, to be a presentation to an international scientific conference? Funny that the official website for that conference does not list it.

Then that very same page has, IIRC, a copyright notice on it ... yet it contains images which are NOT the property of Thornhill, and whose owners have clearly stated their ownership! (what's fraud if not claiming you own something when you clearly do not?)

But I think the real kicker is the blatant intellectual dishonesty, that would surely get you kicked out of any academic position (or at least hauled up before a senior committee) - not citing your sources. Now I'll readily grant that, to you (and Haig?) this may seem trivial; but publishing a document in which you claim almost all the ideas are your own when they are most certainly not is fraud. Of course, anyone can make a mistake, and a draft - clearly labelled as such - is just a draft; however, Thornhill is at the very least ultimately responsible for the content of material on the site on which that document resides, and he is almost certainly well aware of just how frequently the EU zealots/robots post links to it (so we can be pretty sure he condones the widespread distribution of material he knows to be fraudulent, in an academic sense).

Can you honestly say you think Thornhill is not an academic fraud?
 
Oh great. What I get is that you seem very angry, accusive and even proudly think that any post by you or others within this section is pure SCIENCE. You and others have asked questions or implied things which I have tried to respond to in my previous posts, some of which is referenced to source material.
No Siggy_G, I do not.

What you should have gotten, by now, is that this section of JREF has had many EU zealots/robots post hundreds and hundreds of links to just one or two websites, avoid engaging in discussion of the material they post, not answer questions about the material they post (deliberately?), misrepresent - sometimes grotesquely - the relevant science, and so on.

Now you come along and do almost exactly the same thing! :mad:

For example, in one of your first posts in this thread, you commented on the posting style of several of those who've been active in this thread for a long time, sometimes since the beginning .... apparently based on just a tiny sample of the most recent posts. I recommend that you read this thread, painful as it will be, from the beginning, and then try claiming, with a straight face, that your posts are not just another repeat of the same pattern.
 
You seem to assume that the plasma is close to fully ionized and perfectly conductive.

No. This issue has been address many times in other threads. It doesn't matter if the plasma is fully ionized. It doesn't matter if current can further ionize the plasma. You need more than that for a discharge. You need a first-order transition from an insulating to a conducting state, driven by a critical electric field. Since plasma itself is conducting, and since the transition from conducting to even more conducting states is not a first order phase transition but a continuous transition within the same phase, no discharge is possible. You get current, which can vary smoothly, but no discharge.

For the same reason, there can be a good portion of neutral atoms, working as an insulating medium.

No. If it's an insulating medium, it's not a plasma. In the plasma state, the neutral atoms don't "work as an insulating medium". That's why it's a plasma and not a gas.

Also, when two differently charged objects approach, depending on the ionization degree within the plasma medium, a discharge will instantly occur at least within a Debye length, and in some scenarios way longer.

No. In ALL scenarios a current will form at very large distances and continuously increase as they approach. No discharge will occur.

So Thornhill's scenario of electrical discharges isn't falsified based on your description, rather the opposite.

Quite wrong.
 
So you claim that the Thunderbolts team's sole motivation is to sell books, and has nothing to do with scientific engagement and desire for a different approach for understanding the Universe... If anyone wants to earn good money on scientific books, they should write about black holes, worm holes, time travel or some derivation of Hawking's theories these days, not the Electric Universe. If the EU has so few supporters as you imply, why would anyone want to maintain a site and "earn money" on selling books on the subject? Where's your logic?
I claim that "Thunderbolts is a crank web site set up primarily to sell crank books". It is also a forum. It is also a blog.

It has little to do with scientific engagement. The forum for scientific engagement is the scientific community. e.g. conferences and literature.

I do not claim that EU has a few supporters. There are enough chumps out there to allow the authors to maintain the web site and possibly earn mony selling books.
 
You seem to assume that the plasma is close to fully ionized and perfectly conductive. ....
I do not assume either: Plasmas can be as little as 1% ionized and are only perfectly conductive in theory.
Other posters have pointed out the imaginary nature of "Thornhill's scenario of electrical discharges". The physics is simple: Electrical discharges require the breakdown of a dielectric media. Plasma is not a dielectric media. It does not breakdown. It conducts. Thus you cannot have electrical discharges within a plasma. You do have what is observed - electrical currents.
 
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If one start off with a somewhat un-even object, that gets excavated at the tips and bumps (due to EDM) every now and then, one has a subtractive modeling process. Why should this process, with random crate volumes of material coming off, end up as a perfect sphere?? You're not just removing the tip itself, but most likely subsurface material with it. The object will keep being uneven and filled with crates till there's nothing left, during such a continuous process.
Who said "perfect sphere"?
I said smooth ball.

It is simple, Siggy_G.
  1. Subtract the tips and bumps from the surface of an object.
  2. You end up with an object with smaller tips and bumps.
  3. Go to step 1.
The end result is an object with a smooth surface. That object could be non-spherical. But that non-sphere has tips (or bumps). These get eroded away and you end up with a ball.
So The EC idea fails yet again: Sharply carved relief and comet shapes remains valid.

But you do point out another problem with the already debunked EC idea, Siggy_G.
Why does this EDM continuous process not continue until there is nothing left of a comet, maybe not even dust?
There is evidence for extinct comets.

I suspect that the reason will be an ad-hoc addition to the already debunked EC idea that Thornhill's imaginary electrical discharges stop somehow when the comet gets too small.
 
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Thornhill's point, which he explains in the very same article you refer to, is based on the lab tested probability that plasmoids can diverge/fission into two or more objects due to increased/varying electrical stress - and the hypothesis that stars and gas giants could do the same thing under external influence.
That an obviously wrong hypothesis because stars and gas giants are not plasmoids.

Heh, and for the same reason, there can't be no such thing as Martian or lunar meteorites or dust fountains at the Moon? What's your logic? Aren't relative magnitudes between forces of significance in various scenarios?
You do realize that Mars and the Moon are not gas giants?
And yes there are "relative magnitudes between forces of significance in various scenarios". Foe example if I drop a ball bearing on a sand pile is the significant forces have a relative magnitude to when I drop a bowling ball on a sand hill.
What is your logic Siggy_G?
 
Now, I read a few posts by RC stating that the sequence of the flashes weren't like interpreted by Thornhill – and that would cause more a problem in regards to predictions rather than any calculated energy magnitudes. I will need to read into that.
There is basically only one post (unless you are refering to the ones that are months old): ThunderBolts Deep Impact predictions: Lying about flashes
The result was a flash on or after impact followed by a bigger one from deeper in the nucleus according to NASA.
See the papers cited in Tim Thompson's Deep Impact post.

Photometric Evolution of the Deep Impact Flash (03/2006)
The faint flash followed by the delayed saturated flash farther downrange can be explained by an oblique impact into a low-density (0.3 g/cc) target as documented in laboratory experiments [2-4].
...
[2] Schultz, P. H. et al. (2005) SSR, 117, 207-239.
[3] Ernst, C. M. and P. H. Schultz (2003) LPS XXXIV, #2020.
[4] Schultz, P. H. and J. L. B. Anderson (2005) LPS XXXVI, #1926


The ThunderBolts Deep Impact predictions: Lying about the energetic effects is not about the total energy - "energetic effects" is obviously about the effects of the energy, e.g. the ejecta.
On the other hand maybe Thornhill has another prediction for the total energy where that energy is actually calculated. I would be interested in that.
 
Saturn's Comet
The new-found jets on Saturn’s moon Enceladus are indistinguishable from the jets on comets. Like cometary jets, they are electrical in origin and indicative of electrical activity throughout the Saturnian system.

On its recent close pass above the surface of Saturn’s moon Enceladus, the Cassini spacecraft encountered an increased density of icy particles and water vapor. The event was reminiscent of Stardust’s passage around the nucleus of Comet Wild 2, when much larger particles pelted the spacecraft.

As Cassini was leaving Enceladus, its cameras looked back to get a better view of the ice dust and vapor it had encountered. The image above is what it saw: jets, collimated jets, collimated jets like those seen on Comets Wild 2 & Hale-Bopp.
If astrophysicists didn’t have a taboo against uttering the “e” word—“e” for “electrical”—they would have a natural explanation for jets that didn’t call for the intelligent design of comets and small moons: Birkeland currents. Plasma physicists will immediately recognize the jets of Enceladus as cathode jets. Such jets mark the current channels that impinge on Enceladus’s polar region. Those currents are electrically eroding the “tiger stripe” channels on the moon and simultaneously heating them. (As in the case of Io’s “hot spots,” temperature measurements are averaged over the area covered by a pixel. Because the currents “pinch down” where they touch the surface, the actual “hot spot” is apt to be much smaller than a pixel and therefore much hotter than the measurement indicates.)
 
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