The Electric Comet theory

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Why are you posting links from a web site that blatently lies: The lies, failures and successes of Thunderbolts Deep Impact predictions.
They are definitely lying about the jets on Enceladus which are different from cometary jets since they are from liquid water.

Liquid water on Enceladus from observations of ammonia and 40Ar in the plume

Liquid water on Enceladus from observations of ammonia and 40Ar in the plume
Liquid water on Enceladus from observations of ammonia and 40Ar in the plume
 
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Just visited this thread after a long time off with other occupations. Interesting to read the activity, and here's my impression and collective feedback:

Haig: good to see someone discussing with a calm and sane tone - and adimring your effort in responding in a 4 to 1 ratio.
Reality Check: you have adopted a politician's or preacher's techinque of arguing by frequently repeating certain words and labels. Of course, you're doing this in the most negative way, by desperately trying to give the most negative accosiations to a site or supporters of a theory. "Crank, crackpot, idiocy, stupid, lies, fantasies, woo, deluded". Every post from you is colored with this crap and annoying smileys – you just can't resist these Tuorette's tendencies. People can probably do their own interpretation of a site by reading through it. Try to leave the spew sentences out, and keep the scientific content of your posts. You're coming through as a drunken brawler.
Dancing David: congrats with passing 22,000 posts. Are you a bot? At least there is something fishy about all your posts, and you're sharing Reality Check's patronizing phrasing tactics.
Tubbythin: tiny objecting comments without support or content.
Tusenfem: you do at least have some humble opinions and a great deal of scientific content in your posts, but you wouldn't exactly be making your respected teacher proud by continously giving him and his large scale plasma interpretations the finger.

For anyone thinking this is an ad hominem abusive post, just read through the last few posts from each of the respective posters, and a scientific analysis will show that my descriptions are pretty correct. At least, I'm just pointing to ad hominem abuse tendencies among the veteranes here, and it is something that a forum moderatr otherwize would do. At least a forum that has the slogan "a place to discuss skepticism (...) and science in a friendly and lively way". This thread at least only illustrates that this forum only normalizes patronizing, shouting, belittleling – blended with some science. One can see that some new-comers are affected by this, since their responses have to meet the same tone as the veterans' spew. I hope the thread is only read by the 5-6 active posters, and isn't affecting other minds too much.
Would you, Siggy_G, like to share the credit, with Haig, for showing that the EC idea just does not add up?

You could work on a parallel set of simple calculations, based on the EU material that you, and he, have (collectively) posted here (so you don't need to do anything like read a physics textbook); here's how:

Step 1: estimate the Debye length for a typical chunk of plasma in the Sun's photosphere. To make things easy, just choose anywhere on the top of the photosphere of a nice quiet Sun, at the minimum of a cycle, with nothing obviously happening.

I assume you know the formula for Debye length, and know how to calculate it given values of the various parameters; if not, I'm sure several people here would be only too happy to help you! :)

Once you've done that, I'll help you with the next step.
 
Who said "perfect sphere"?
I said smooth ball.

It is simple, Siggy_G.
  1. Subtract the tips and bumps from the surface of an object.
  2. You end up with an object with smaller tips and bumps.
  3. Go to step 1.
The end result is an object with a smooth surface. That object could be non-spherical. But that non-sphere has tips (or bumps). These get eroded away and you end up with a ball.
So The EC idea fails yet again: Sharply carved relief and comet shapes remains valid.

Not so sure. The formation and depth of each crater depends mainly on the intensity of the discharges and pressure, and will not only remove the tips themselves off the surface. By removing subsurface material it will cause an indent, a crate. Numerous and random amounts of this will cause a scattered crated surface, naturally. (It could also explain other surface scarrings seen on planetary surfaces, but that is material for another thread). According to your view, what happens if the surface is smooth to begin with (or at the end) - is there no reason for discharges if there are no tips?

Mass transfer and crater geometry of a spark discharge in a hermetically sealed chamber
Plasma-Generated Craters and Spherules
 
Not so sure. The formation and depth of each crater depends mainly on the intensity of the discharges and pressure, and will not only remove the tips themselves off the surface. By removing subsurface material it will cause an indent, a crate. Numerous and random amounts of this will cause a scattered crated surface, naturally. (It could also explain other surface scarrings seen on planetary surfaces, but that is material for another thread). According to your view, what happens if the surface is smooth to begin with (or at the end) - is there no reason for discharges if there are no tips?
It is a a fact that EDM produces smooth surfaces. I suspect that it is because the size of the discharge depends on the geometry, i.e. the sharper and larger the tip the bigger the discharge. Or maybe the operators reduce the voltage to get the smoothness.

Of course the reason that I can say that the EC idea predicts comets to be smooth and shaped like balls is because it is just an idea. It states nothing about how the discharges act. So I am free to say that they act to make the comets smooth and spherical which seems reasonable.

But this is moot because Thronhill's electrical discharges are physically impossible. We may as well start talking about Santa Clause and how he delivers presents to all of the worlds children in one night.
 
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That an obviously wrong hypothesis because stars and gas giants are not plasmoids.

My bad, as I used the term plasmoid for the plasma bodies stars are. (And see below)

You do realize that Mars and the Moon are not gas giants?
And yes there are "relative magnitudes between forces of significance in various scenarios". Foe example if I drop a ball bearing on a sand pile is the significant forces have a relative magnitude to when I drop a bowling ball on a sand hill.
What is your logic Siggy_G?

You stated that there can't come off any debris from a planetary surface because a little thing called gravity prevents it. Which is why I responded with the examples of Martian meteorites and lunar dust repelled from the surface by electrostatic charging. In these scenarios, electromagnetic or collisional forces exceed gravity (and escape velocity) in magnitude.

Anyway, this is what Thornhill stated in this regard (article):

Plasma cosmology shows that stars are born in a galactic electrical discharge event involving the powerful electromagnetic “Z-pinch” effect. Gravity can be ignored [in the initial phase of galaxy formation]. Companion stars and gas giant planets are born later as the Z-pinch subsides and the new stars adjust to their changing electrical environment by expelling matter from their cores. That explains the apparent anomaly of “hot Jupiters” found closely orbiting nearby stars. Sometime later again, in achieving orbital stability through electrical encounters with other planetary bodies, gas giants may expel matter from within to form companion moons and rings. Some of that matter escapes the parent to form planetary, asteroidal, cometary and meteoroidal bodies.

And:

Comets and asteroids are, in this picture, the debris from these interplanetary electrical events and are not "primordial." This hypothesis was recently buttressed by the 'surprising' discovery of high-temperature minerals captured from a comet tail by the Stardust spacecraft. Like the planets, each comet has a complex history. Comets may have different planetary parents or be torn from different surface materials on the same planet. They may be more or less electrically burnt and scarred in their 'birth' process.
 
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I do not assume either: Plasmas can be as little as 1% ionized and are only perfectly conductive in theory.
Other posters have pointed out the imaginary nature of "Thornhill's scenario of electrical discharges". The physics is simple: Electrical discharges require the breakdown of a dielectric media. Plasma is not a dielectric media. It does not breakdown. It conducts. Thus you cannot have electrical discharges within a plasma. You do have what is observed - electrical currents.

This is why I'm wondering about data of the ionization degree within a coma, especially close to the nucleus. If the inner part of the coma is a gas, it has dielectric properties. As soon as it gets ionized (I would assume above a lower threshold; 1%) due to radiation etc. it has plasma properties. The ionosphere is partially ionized (at least within certain volumes/clouds), and there are examples of long-range discharges there; red sprites.
 
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This is why I'm wondering about data of the ionization degree within a coma, especially close to the nucleus. If the inner part of the coma is a gas, it has dielectric properties. As soon as it gets ionized (I would assume above a lower threshold; 1%) due to radiation etc. it has plasma properties. The ionosphere is partially ionized (at least within certain volumes/clouds), and there are examples of long-range discharges there; red sprites.
All I know is that papers and textbooks describe cometary comas as ionized.
If you can find some literature stating that there is a gas layer around a comet then I would be interested. Then the only problem is you creating a model that produces electrical discharges with enough energy to somehow produce water, CO, CO2, methane, etc. from rock. The citations to how these electrical discharges do that would also be interesting.
 
My bad, as I used the term plasmoid for the plasma bodies stars are. (And see below)
That is just as bad - stars are plasma. They are held together by gravity. No plasma effect would make a star split apart.

Anyway, this is what Thornhill stated in this regard (article):
And:
[/quote]
I repeat what I said before to Haig: Why are you posting links from a web site that blatently lies: The lies, failures and successes of Thunderbolts Deep Impact predictions.

The first quote is ignorant:
  • Hot Jupiters are not an anomaly.
  • Stellar formation is well understood and he cites no evidence of "galactic electrical discharge event involving the powerful electromagnetic “Z-pinch” effect" in star forming regions.
And as you are learning - plasmas conduct - not discharge.

The second quote is definitely wrong: Cometary dust is a mixture of high temperature and low temperature dust. This is consistent with dust formed in the inner system being blown out to the outer system to form comets.
If an entire comet was formed in a single high temperture even as Thornhill implies then that is not a comet that we have ever seen.

But you are right aboyt planetary impacts - some of the cometary dust could be formed from material ejected from rocky plasmets and moons after impacts.

A pity that Thornhill has this pseudo-science about magic happening to make material escape from stars and gas planets.
  • What escapes from stars is stellar wind which is not dust.
  • What escapes from gas giants is gas (mostly hydrogen) which is not dust.
 
All I know is that papers and textbooks describe cometary comas as ionized.
If you can find some literature stating that there is a gas layer around a comet then I would be interested.

After some search, it seems there is quite a bit of papers describing gas volumes around a comet (in addition to the otherwize ionized), hereby the so-called Knudsen layer.

Gas flow and dust acceleration in a cometary Knudsen layer
Comet Knudsen Layers
A practical tool for simulating the presence of gas comae in thermophysical modeling of cometary nuclei
 
SHEATH PHENOMENA IN DUSTY PLASMAS (PDF)

Page 2 of the introduction reads;

Ionized gases containing small particles of solid matter are called dusty (complex) plasmas. In the last decades there has been a growing interest in this field. This interest rose in two very different fields in physics - the astrophysics and the industrial plasma research, in particular microelectronics.

Initially, the interest in dusty plasmas arose in the field of astrophysics,as dust is present in many astrophysical environments (interstellar medium [2],nebulae[3], comet tails, planetary rings [4]). Another fundamental field,in which the dust presence has an important role, is the physics of the atmosphere.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://alexandria.tue.nl/extra2/200510434.pdf

Particularly interesting for the "Electric Comet" Theory

N.B. Not much time just now, even less than usual:(
 
SHEATH PHENOMENA IN DUSTY PLASMAS (PDF)

Page 2 of the introduction reads;


https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://alexandria.tue.nl/extra2/200510434.pdf

Particularly interesting for the "Electric Comet" Theory
Particularly interesting for the standard theory of comets.
A little note Haig: Dusty plasmas are still plasmas and there is still no possibility of electrical discharges through them.
Siggy_G has found references that suggest some gas exists around comet nuclei (as opposed to plasma). That is interesting because it suggests the possibilty of electrical discharges between the coma and surface. I suggest that you or Siggy_G plug in the numbers and see what comes out.
N.B. You still have the problem that the X-ray bursts expected from discharges have not been seen. But maybe the discharges are really, really weak. Then how do they do their magical conversion of enough rock into the observed water, methane, CO, CO2, etc.?


We still have all of the other flaws that make the EC idea so pitiful (see The totally stupid electric comet idea debunked), e.g.
 

for what it's worth, but I guess nothing, plasma(astro)physicists and space physicists have absolutely nothing against electric fields and currents. They pop up often in my papers, st Thornhill does not have any notion about what happens in real life space physics.

Secondly, as usual the peeps from thunderdolts give no explanation at all. The only thing is that they say: "See, collimation, must be discharge" No physics, not math, not explanation just, "this is how it is and astronomers are misguided as they don't know about electric fields blah blah blah".

This is getting tedious, Haig, either bring something of substance, where you show that e.g. Enceladus's jets are electric (although there is a paper where it is shown that the jets appear when the surface gets opened due to tidal forces on the moon, and not every opening opens all of the time, there is a model by Joachim Saur where you can find all the details).
 
I had never heard of it before I saw this thread.You are wrong.
I studied Astrophysics up to doctoral level at college and, before I encountered it here at the JREF, I'd never heard of the Electric Universe/Plasma Cosmology theories.
After reading up on it, including the links to its promoters, I consider it utter rubbish with no basis in reality what so ever. Thus it's similar to homeopathy and similar woo, promoted by a small number of fanatics who are unable to accept, or understand, that they are simply wrong.
 
I consider it utter rubbish with no basis in reality what so ever
Could you expand on that dismissal a little? If you could use your expertise to explain away the points raised in this short video "The Electric Universe" particularly the points about electric comets.

I know the use of YouTube in this forum will be looked down on, but as a layman with very little time, I ask that you indulge me this once. I really think he puts across the argument very well.
 
I know the use of YouTube in this forum will be looked down on, but as a layman with very little time, I ask that you indulge me this once. I really think he puts across the argument very well.

Within the first 20 seconds he makes it very clear that he does not understand the difference between cosmology and astronomy. After that there really is no point in going further.
 
There is no clear boundary between the two, as they are closely related.
Come on Tubbythin, try and last the ten mins;) I'd be very interested in a critical view without any ad-homs. Even if you just look at the electric comet points that start at 1min 9s

I got to 2 mins and got bored. There was nothing there hadn't been comprehensively debunked by someone on this thread already. Oh, and I fail to see how electric comets (even they weren't a load of crap) could have the slightest significance for cosmology.
 
Could you expand on that dismissal a little? If you could use your expertise to explain away the points raised in this short video "The Electric Universe" particularly the points about electric comets.

I'll take a shot at it. I'm writing this as I watch (and pause) the video:

The narrator mentions the issue about the corona being hotter than the surface of the sun, and asking how that can happen if the sun is being powered by fusion at the core. He's got a point, but his conclusion is wrong. The corona is not heated by fusion at the core of the sun, or at least not directly. Some other mechanism must heat the corona.

But there are some rather critical points to keep in mind. Although the corona is fantastically high temperature, it's also almost transparent. This means that it loses heat very slowly. So while we need some additional heating mechanism, the power requirement for this heating mechanism are low, orders of magnitude below the total solar output. In fact, this is trivial to determine simply by the fact that the corona isn't nearly as bright as the photosphere, and can only be seen by eye when the photosphere is eclipsed, so it must be outputting far less energy.

Conclusion: we need a mechanism to transfer energy to the corona other than radiant heat from the photosphere. A model that only has fusion at the core of the sun creating radiant heat transfer won't accomplish that. But a model where fusion at the sun drives secondary processes, and those secondary processes create secondary heating of the corona, is not prohibited by this observation.

Sunspots:
He says that we can see further into the sun at sunspots, the interior of the sun is supposed to be hotter, and so sunspots should be hotter. This reasoning is seriously flawed.

Why are sunspots cooler? Because the plasma in them gets trapped by magnetic fields, so it can't convect as fast. Convective heating is a major component of heat transfer near the surface of the sun, so if you slow that down, you slow down the heating of plasma near the surface. It will still radiate heat away, but won't regain that heat as fast. So any plasma in the sunspot which can radiate into space will be colder than plasma not in the sun spot. And what plasma can we see? Why, plasma which can radiate into space.

So sunspots being cooler is exactly what we expect from the standard model. And regardless of that one might want to claim about the source of the sun's magnetic field, it's been observed. So the idea that sun spots are the result of magnetic fields isn't "warped", it's a very well-supported theory.

I skipped over much of the comet stuff, because it bores me to tears. But I will note this: comets make up an exceedingly small fraction of the mass of the solar system, and the universe. When trying to figure out what theories best describe the universe, should I start with one that explains what most of the matter is doing exceptionally well, but might have some problems with this little bit of matter on the side, or should I start with one that explains those little bits of matter, but fail spectacularly when trying to describe what's going on with most of the mass?

In other words, comets are a piss-poor way to try to figure out stellar physics or cosmology.

Then they move on to neutron stars, and simply declare without explanation that neutron stars are impossible. That doesn't cut it. Their reasoning is so absent I can't even criticize it, because there's nothing to criticize. And that's the problem.

Then they object to black holes. They complain that the jets shouldn't exist if light can't escape a black hole. But that's an incredibly ignorant assertion. Light can't escape from inside the event horizon of a black hole. But light, AND matter, can still escape from outside the event horizon. And the accretion disk and jets all form outside the event horizon. Then they claim that the accretion disk is a hypothetical object. But it's not. Hell, Saturn has one. All the accretion disk is is a torus of matter orbiting the body. There's nothing abstract about it.

Then there's the whole redshift thing. Aarp's data is crap. He cherry picks examples of quasars in close angular proximity to galaxies, and claims that this means that they're also close in distance. But they aren't. And that picture they include with the "luminous bridge"? Absolute crap. Give me any two broadened signals with a bit of overlap, and an intensity map will make it look like there's a "bridge" between them.

Their bit on Birkeland is particularly amusing. Birkeland did a bunch of plasma experiments, including some where he tried to reproduce something equivalent to planetary rings. And he did get ring-shaped plasma glows around his sphere. But planetary rings aren't glowing plasma. They're made from solids. They don't glow. They're only visible through reflected light. On the far side of Saturn, they are dark, as the planet casts a clear shadow across them. Birkeland can be forgiven for this mistake given the limits of astronomy at the time, but the folks in this video can't be.

And then there's the whole HAARP causing earthquakes conspiracy. They note that HAARP can put "immense quantities of energy" into the ionosphere. I don't think they've got any idea of what "immense" actually entails, because the energies involved with HAARP aren't anywhere close to the energies involved in earthquakes.

I know the use of YouTube in this forum will be looked down on, but as a layman with very little time, I ask that you indulge me this once. I really think he puts across the argument very well.

It's a nice enough package, I'll agree with that, but the content is garbage.
 
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