The Electric Comet theory

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No one claims Velikovsky was right in everything but he was right to challenge the dogma of his day and his work is still strong in this day too.
No, Haig: A few cranks think that Velikovsky was right in some things.
Anyone who knows about physics claims that Velikovsky was wrong in everything he wrote about physics and that he was wrong to make up fantasies about physics and his work is still physically invalid this day too.
 
And where do you get back to the electric comet idea in that post, Haig?
A fantasy about "electrical effects of charged bodies" magically applying to all bodies in the Solar System. Obviously electrical effects on charged rocky bodies only apply to charged rocky bodies :eek:!
A Thunderbolts fantasy about 67P.
Ignorance about what the Earth is (it is not a comet :p!): Evidence for solar wind modulation of lightning http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/9/5/055004/article
Ignorance about what the Mars is (it is not a comet :p!): The dust devil and the details: Spinning up a storm on Mars http://www.uah.edu/news/research/dust-devil-and-the-details-spinning-up-a-storm-on-mars
Ignorance about what the Earth is (it is not a comet :p!): Gamma-ray flashes from lightning are both more complex, common http://www.uah.edu/news/research/gamma-ray-flashes-from-lightning-are-both-more-complex-common
Ignorance about what the Earth is (it is not a comet :p!): Gamma-ray bursts 'common in storms' on Earth http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30491840
Ignorance about what the Earth is (it is not a comet :p!): NASA's Fermi Catches Thunderstorms Hurling Antimatter into Space www.nasa.gov
Ignorance about what the Mars is (it is not a comet :p!): The Devils of Mars http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2005/14jul_dustdevils/
Ignorance about what the Earth is (it is not a comet :p!): The Electromagnetic Nature of Tornadic Supercell Thunderstorms http://charles-chandler.org/Geophysics/Tornadoes.php?text=full&images=onDemand&units=metric#id_7
Ignorance about what the Earth is (it is not a comet :p!): Electric Field Intensity At The Ground Under Active Thunderstorms And Tornadoes http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/1520-0469(1956)013<0269:EFIATG>2.0.CO;2
Ignorance about what the Earth is (it is not a comet :p!): Electric Currents Accompanying Tornado Activity www.sciencemag.org

And then pointing out the Thunderbolts delusion of thinking that dust devils are part of their EU/PC fantasy.
 
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RC--they are NOT going to answer any of those questions, they are not going to respond.
Yes, rwguinn, I know that they are not going to answer any of the questions. The point of the lists is to
* display the inability of the supporters of the electric comet idea to back up that idea with evidence.
* record that inability for the world to see forever more (obviously they do not realize that the Internet is eternal!).
* and to have an ever expanding record of just how bad the electric comet idea is.

They are not "turning my crank". Haig's continued practice of linking to crank web sites, videos and PDFs has been going on for years. Sol88's denial of science has been going on for 5 years. I also know that readers of this thread are smart enough to see what Sol88 and Haig are not presenting science.

The occasional benefit of people desperately trying to find valid science to support crank ideas is that they sometimes stumble across interesting science. I have learned a lot about real comets here.
 
You make me out to be a con artist :eek:

All I did was quote some of the actual words Alfven said and there is a lot more he said that chide the mainstream wrong turn he warned about.



That is pure projection

No one claims Velikovsky was right in everything but he was right to challenge the dogma of his day and his work is still strong in this day too.

The Science he confronted has become a religion all on it's own. :eye-poppi

Where is the scientific method now ?

What dogma?:confused:

As far as where the scientific method IS, it got a probe precisely to the comet to be investigated, NOT using your Elecrophillic theory, and also has done so with several space probes, plus the satellites that give us GPS and worldwide weather monitoring.
 
Tom, that is because they are "problems" of your own making. Misrepresenting or misunderstanding the Electric Comet hypothesis is common issue so that contrary arguments to it (ECh) are a line of straw men to easily knock over.

The quotes below from HERE should help you understand.

We've understood electromagnetism for over 100 years. The Maxwell Equations defined in the 1860s are still in use today, and combined with the knowledge of atomic structure, in the last 50 years have discovered many interesting configurations possible in the laboratory, as well as nature. All of them yield their secrets under mathematical analysis. Numerical simulations of plasmas are actually accurate enough to provide the basis for commercial ventures.
Electric Universe: Plasma Physics for Fun AND Profit!

If EU 'theorists' are still hiding behind excuses for their refusal to present numerically testable models, it is most likely a reflection of their lack of competence in the electromagnetism, plasmas, and astronomy. Considering some of the bizarre claims they have made which I have addressed:

On Magnetic Reconnection and "Discharges"

Electric Universe: Making Electric Fields

The Sad State of the Electric Sun(s) - Not So Bright. A popular racket in pseudo-sciences is to have multiple, radically different, even incompatible models, to which supporters can switch when cornered on problems with any particular one. Hopefully, the EU fans will stop following before the EU supporters' unworkable claims get exposed full circle!

Though my favorite whopper is the paper I discuss in
Scott Rebuttal. IV. 'Open' magnetic field lines, which actually managed to get published in IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science.
It is no surprise that IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science has since placed a disclaimer on their site, http://plasmauniverse.info/, dis-associating themselves from EU:
"The Plasma Universe and Plasma Cosmology have no ties to the anti-science blogsites of the holoscience 'electric universe'."

Again, the mysterious kabal of EU 'theorists' who never actually demonstrate they can do anything. They just make vague claims and then send their acolytes to spread their message CLAIMING they're doing 'leading-edge' science and a testable Electric Universe theory will be available Real Soon Now.

Sorry Tom for not responding earlier I don't have a lot of free time to always check previous pages and can easily miss questions directed at me.

And yet you dodged them again...


I've documented many of the Electric Universe failures on these 'hypotheses' which EU supporters refuse to address or even acknowledge: Challenges for Electric Universe 'Theorists'...

Cart before the horse Tom it's ALL about evidence !

Again, you claim 'a weak electric field of constant strength'. What strength? What charge distribution creates it?

The questions before still apply and your 'resources' don't come anywhere close to answering them:

1) Where is the EU method of computing the electric and magnetic fields and particle fluxes in any of these galactic birkeland currents?

2) Where are the numbers that we can compare to actual spacecraft measurement?

3) What is the amount of microwave emission we would detect for such currents? Both the one driving the Sun and those driving other stars? How does this compare to current instrument sensitivity in the detection bands of instruments like PLANCK or even ground-based radio telescopes?

4) What's the electric charge on the comet and the Sun?

5) How does the presence of the electrostatic force between the comet and Sun affect the comet's motion?

6) Want to complain that this doesn't include effects of the Sun's magnetic field? Then compute them, otherwise you're just making excuses.

Yet without including any of these 'electric sun' features, the Rosetta team managed to navigate their spacecraft for 10 years to a precision rendezvous.

7) If the mainstream model is so wrong, how did they manage that when they didn't include all the charges and electric fields in this environment advocated by EU?

EU retracting their 'theory' to an 'hypothesis' and that it's too soon to insist that it be capable of producing numerical predictions is just another cowardly approach to evade/avoid making actual numerical predictions for anything because every time they do they get publicly skewered by all the evidence that they are wrong.

Then they also try the popular creationist strategy of claiming that every 'problem' or 'anomaly' in the mainstream science is automatically evidence for their claims. Here's just some of those and others have documented:
Yet Another Claimed Stake-through-the-Heart of Big Bang Cosmology?


Regurgitating EU 'Scripture' does not constitute evidence - well, maybe 200 years ago it was sufficient, in the days long before space flight or spectroscopy and atomic physics, but not today.

To save face, EUs current strategy is to fall back to claiming it is only a 'hypothesis'.

The mathematical tools for solving charge and current configurations, even in plasmas, exist and are taught in many astrophysical plasma courses.

The computational tools for solving fairly large computational problems in electromagnetism and plasma physics are available in just about any BestBuy. With open source tools, multiple machines can be clustered in configurations that far exceed the computational power of the supercomputers used by Tony Peratt.
Electric Universe: Real Plasma Physicists BUILD Mathematical Models
Still waiting for that computation promised by Siggy_G!

The tools exist to solve these problems, so again, we hit the question of what is the excuse of EU 'theorists'?

Perhaps there is a lack of competence among the Electric Universe 'theorists' so their claims are indistinguishable from wishful thinking?

Or it this just EU's latest tactic to stall the day-of-reckoning, the day when EU supporters realize they've been played for suckers into buying books, DVDs, and attending 'conferences' by the EU 'elite'?

Frankly, I prefer to spend my money with people who have demonstrated real expertise in comprehending the science and designing, building and operating missions in space.
 
And that makes you what exactly ? :p

A spectator, I suppose.

I'm certainly not a participant. Everything I've ever said you've simply ignored. You've been duped, and you refuse any help to see it. You're convinced that you now own the deed to the Brooklyn Bridge, and anyone trying to talk you out of it is just trying to scam it off you.
 
@Cygnus_X1:

Since you've had extensive dealings with EU proponents, do you know what they mean when they say that gravity is "poorly understood"?
 
@Cygnus_X1:

Since you've had extensive dealings with EU proponents, do you know what they mean when they say that gravity is "poorly understood"?

IMO, if they mean anything at all, it's either "the Pioneer anomaly" or "you guys had to invent dark matter and dark energy". Vast tracts of text, explaining every detail of the dark-matter hypothesis, the caution with which it's been compared to alternative hypotheses, etc., have been expended fruitlessly on this point.
 
@Cygnus_X1:

Since you've had extensive dealings with EU proponents, do you know what they mean when they say that gravity is "poorly understood"?

EU supporters have various claims that try to map gravity as an electromagnetic phenomena.

Like many ideas promoted by EU, some were legitimately explored, 50-100 and more years ago, and were abandoned when found to be dead ends.
 
Dust lifted off the comet, into the mixed solar wind and comet-produced plasma, tends to become negatively charged, because electrons colliding with the dust often stick to the dust. This is a well known phenomenon of dusty plasmas. (if the grains get bigger, though, the dust can also be positively charged, making things even more complicated).

High-energy particles impacting on any solar system surface produce "sputtering" in which the particle hits the surface and breaks off molecules off the surface (at Europa for example water, sulphur, chlorine etc.). These molecules are mostly neutral, but get ionized by UV radiation of the Sun and then picked-up by the solar wind magnetic field.

Dust charge and sputtering have, IMHO, little to do with cometary jets. There is no discussion of jets in Andrew's paper, nor in the presentation. The only thing is that jets deposit more dust from the surface of the comet.

What about the finding of SULFUR? Tholins, No Sublimating SURFACE ICE, no orifices or vents at the source of the jets just to name a few problems with he mainstream sublimating comet model.

Not saying the ELECTRIC COMET is correct but the dirty sublimating snowball is in a bit of a bind and it's funny to watch them dance around the subject that what we are NOW observing on comets is NOT what was expected from the mainstream model.

I postulate that the dust is not entrained in sublimating ices but is being electrolytically levitated of the surface as a dusty plasma.

CHARGED DUST DYNAMICS IN THE SOLAR SYSTEM
Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Vol. 34: 383-418 (Volume publication date September 1996)
DOI: 10.1146/annurev.astro.34.1.383
Mihály Horányi
Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado 80309-0392


In most space environments, dust particles are exposed to plasmas and UV radiation and, consequently, carry electrostatic charges. Their motion is influenced by electric and magnetic fields in addition to gravity, drag, and radiation pressure. On the surface of the Moon, in planetary rings, or at comets, for example, electromagnetic forces can shape the spatial and size distribution of micron-sized charged dust particles. The dynamics of small charged dust particles can be surprisingly complex, leading to levitation, rapid transport, energization and ejection, capture, and the formation of new planetary rings.

Moon dust fountains and electrostatic levitation

There is some evidence that the Moon may have a tenuous atmosphere of moving dust particles constantly leaping up from and falling back to the Moon's surface, giving rise to a "dust atmosphere" that looks static but is composed of dust particles in constant motion. The term "Moon fountain" has been used to describe this effect by analogy with the stream of molecules of water in a fountain following a ballistic trajectory while appearing static due to the constancy of the stream. According to a model proposed in 2005 by Timothy J. Stubbs, Richard R. Vondrak, and William M. Farrell of the Laboratory for Extraterrestrial Physics at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, [4] this is caused by electrostatic levitation. On the daylit side of the Moon, solar ultraviolet and X-ray radiation is energetic enough to knock electrons out of atoms and molecules in the lunar soil. Positive charges build up until the tiniest particles of lunar dust (measuring 1 micrometre and smaller) are repelled from the surface and lofted anywhere from metres to kilometres high, with the smallest particles reaching the highest altitudes. Eventually they fall back toward the surface where the process is repeated over and over again. On the night side, the dust is negatively charged by electrons in the solar wind. Indeed, the fountain model suggests that the night side would charge up to higher voltages than the day side, possibly launching dust particles to higher velocities and altitudes. [5] This effect could be further enhanced during the portion of the Moon's orbit where it passes through Earth's magnetotail; see Magnetic field of the Moon for more detail. [6] On the terminator there could be significant horizontal electric fields forming between the day and night areas, resulting in horizontal dust transport - a form of "moon storm".[5][7]
LINK

or

A DYNAMIC FOUNTAIN MODEL FOR LUNAR DUST.
T. J. Stubbs, R. R. Vondrak and W. M. Farrell,


The dust with enough velocity will "leave" the comet and be constrained in a filamentary "jet" as observed. The "jets" have been resolved into finer filamentary structures. The electrochemical process of -OH and H20 will then happen a little further down the tail, as observed, after that standard mainstream plasma physics should be able to understand just what's going on!

:)

but in reality, that's what we've said all along. Basically NO SUBLIMATING ICE EITHER ON OR BELOW THE SURFACE.
 
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The irony is Electric Comets and Electric Sun should be the "in" thing.

From the microcosm to the macrocosm everything is electric, the more we look the more we see electricity.

Where would we be without electricity ? It's used everywhere in modern life and in modern science. Right ?

But electric comets reacting with an electric sun .... that's just crazy :D


How can this crap be the "in" thing when all the evidence is against it.

haig please show me a real EC model where they can actually esitmate how much water is generated by the machining fantasy.

Even though those "plasma" physicists from Thunderdolts, and do not forget the electrical engineers, have had decades to develop their fantasy, the only they can come up with are generalities, and are too scared to look at real data, apart from "easily interpretable" pictures with lots of "hinein-interpretieren". Why has NOBODY actually looked at the fields data from Halley, but only commenting on the "mystery electric fields" without even accessing the publicly available data?

EC is a fantasy, as is the ES, and the EU.
 
What about the finding of SULFUR? Tholins, No Sublimating SURFACE ICE, no orifices or vents at the source of the jets just to name a few problems with he mainstream sublimating comet model.

As we know that 67P/CG has had close encounters with Jupiter, which has a moon, Io, which emits about 1 tonne of sulphur containing gas per second, it would not be surprising to find sulphur on the comet.

However, that had nothing to do with the question you posed. But nice that woos always come up with a new "problem" whenever they get an answer which they do not like. That is soooo creationalism.

Not saying the ELECTRIC COMET is correct but the dirty sublimating snowball is in a bit of a bind and it's funny to watch them dance around the subject that what we are NOW observing on comets is NOT what was expected from the mainstream model.

Ah, crawling back already, away from EC, are we?
They are not in a blind, but as this is the first time we have such a suite of instruments it would be surprising if nothing new would be found. I hope you understand that this is a first-time mission, the total spacecraft payload cannot be compared with the simple stuff that was on Giotto or VEGA 1/2.
For the rest, it seems that the comet is mainly acting as Snodgrass described in his paper about the activity, based on the passage 6 years ago.

I postulate that the dust is not entrained in sublimating ices but is being electrolytically levitated of the surface as a dusty plasma.

And how much levitation, how high, what is the charge ...
Just quote mining does not a scientist make, dear solly.
 
As we know that 67P/CG has had close encounters with Jupiter, which has a moon, Io, which emits about 1 tonne of sulphur containing gas per second, it would not be surprising to find sulphur on the comet.

However, that had nothing to do with the question you posed. But nice that woos always come up with a new "problem" whenever they get an answer which they do not like. That is soooo creationalism.



Ah, crawling back already, away from EC, are we?
They are not in a blind, but as this is the first time we have such a suite of instruments it would be surprising if nothing new would be found. I hope you understand that this is a first-time mission, the total spacecraft payload cannot be compared with the simple stuff that was on Giotto or VEGA 1/2.
For the rest, it seems that the comet is mainly acting as Snodgrass described in his paper about the activity, based on the passage 6 years ago.



And how much levitation, how high, what is the charge ...
Just quote mining does not a scientist make, dear solly.

No, not crawling back just towing the party line of if mainstream is wrong it does not make the ECH correct, yeah?

Well, i'm just kicking back watching the slow crawl to the the LIGHT side :)

as for the
And how much levitation, how high, what is the charge ...
Just quote mining does not a scientist make, dear solly

Seems we will soon find out...;)
 
Hey well done on the movie "Ambition" , nice fairy tale, much like the standard comet model! :o

what's the key to life, WATER! Where could all this water come from? In time we turned to comets!!!

:blush:


Now, back to the main show, no SUBLIMATING ICE on 67P and JET production.
 
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And how much levitation, how high, what is the charge ...
Just quote mining does not a scientist make, dear solly

What size dust were you interested in Tusenfem? cause you've kinda answered your own question
Dust lifted off the comet, into the mixed solar wind and comet-produced plasma, tends to become negatively charged, because electrons colliding with the dust often stick to the dust. This is a well known phenomenon of dusty plasmas. (if the grains get bigger, though, the dust can also be positively charged, making things even more complicated).
 
Good morning ApolloGnomon, Captain_Swoop.
Captain_Swoop said:
Do you have to post that list several times a day? it's a complete pain!
I agree. RC may join the one other person on my Ignore list.
As a new member just a month or so ago, I found Reality Check's posts very helpful. In one place, with a few clicks, I could quickly get a sense of how well (or not) members like Haig and Sol88 had responded to others' posts, questioning the ech (as we now call it), commenting on it, etc. To be sure, I also found Haig's posts - in response to my questions - very informative.

Now that I've been here a while, and have also read through this entire thread from the beginning, it certainly does seem that many of Reality Check's posts are repetitious, overkill even.

A meta-question for you, if I may: in your experience, what are some effective techniques for addressing the sorts of patterns evident in Haig's and Sol88's posts? Not just generally, but in a section of ISF supposedly devoted to science?
 
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