The Electric Comet theory

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I haven't plowed through this thread, but I am quite familiar with the electric comet model -- and the EU in general -- and I find the electric comet model to fit observation much better than xray-generating snow-cones.
Sorry, Max Photon, but that statement implies a lot of ignorance of but the EC idea (Electric comets still do not exist! ) and the actual science of comets.
There are no qualitative predictions from the EC idea thus it does match any observations of comets.
What we have is a bunch of fairly ignorant people using "I see bunnies in the clouds" logic. They are in denial of fairly basic physics and even arithmetic, e.g. that 3.0 is greater than 0.6: Comets have measured densities that are much less than that of rocks (asteroids)..

F.Y.I Max Photon, there are no x-rays emitted from any comet nuclei (which are not snow-cones!). But
I am not going to spoon-feed you.
either :rolleyes:!
 
Actual relaity cheched

First that link does not work, Max Photon.
Secondly it is probably about well known x-rays from the comet coma, not nucleus as you implied.
Thirdly try reading this thread where the actual x-rays observed from comet coma have been mentioned!
Fourthly (:)) try understanding that the x-rays from comet coma have actual scientific explanations. They are so well known that they are even in the textbooks that the thunderbolt cranks have never read.

Since you seem to be ignorant about comets, this is a hint of what a scientific textbook on comets looks like, Max Photon:
Electric comets still do not exist!
Electric Comets II: References
I would like to expand a bit on my previous post by including some reference material. First, I will refer to the book I recommended earlier, Introduction to Comets by Brandt & Chapman (Cambridge University Press, 2004, 2nd edition), specifically section 6.4.4 (Cometary X-rays), page 230.

Brandt & Chapman reference Lisse, et al., 2001, and point out that there are only two plausible sources for cometary X-rays: charge exchange and electron-neutral thermal bremsstrahlung.
Originally Posted by Brandt & Chapman page 230
Lisse, et al. (2001) obtained observations of comet C/LINEAR 1999 S4 using the Chandra X-ray Observatory. Line emission was detected as shown in Fig. 6.24. The fit to the observations contains a six-line charge exchange model plus a thermal bremsstrahlung contribution. The clear peak at 570 eV is caused by charge exchange of O+5. The agreement with the observations is excellent, but the contribution from thermal bremsstrahlung could decrease as spectral resolution imporves
As an example of one common charge exchange reaction, Brandt & Chapman give ...

O6+ + M = O5+* + M+

Where the M is any one of many different possible neutral molecules or atoms in the cometary coma, most commonly perhaps H2O, OH, O & H. The '*' symbol indicates that the O5+ ion could be either in the ground state (O5+), or in an excited state (O5+*). If the latter, then there will be additional X-ray or gamma-ray photons, which are also consistent with astronomical observations.

Also worth noting:
Originally Posted by Brandt & Chapman page 229
Subsequent analysis of 15 comets showed that the emission was confined to the coma volume between the nucleus and the sun. No correlation was found between the X-ray emission and dust or plasma tails or the sun's X-ray flux.
This is noteworthy because the draping of the solar wind magnetic field over he comet would inhibit the build up of charge along the leading edge, where the X-rays are observed to originate, and encourage charge build up either along the sides or through the tail (the latter being the mechanism that our group uncovered to explain the correlation between the solar wind and Jovian radio emission; Bolton, et al., 1989). So in the EU "model" arcing and X-rays should be generated where the charge builds up, away from the region where the X-rays are actually observed to originate. So one more reason becomes apparent for doubting the EU idea.

A more complete review of cometary X-ray & UV emission can be found in Krasnopolsky, Greenwood & Stancil, 2004 (not freely available, you will have to look it up the old fashioned way).

I also said that the astronomical observations compared favorably with laboratory observations of charge exchange spectra. See, for instance, the paper Beiersdorfer, et al., 2005a and the AGU abstract Beiersdorfer, et al., 2005b.

The emission of X-rays and UV from comets is readily explained via well understood mainstream physics, and supported by agreement between ground based laboratory experiments & astronomical observations. Furthermore, the observed properties of cometary X-rays, while supported by mainstream physics, is simultaneously inconsistent with the expectations of the naieve EU ideas.
 
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I haven't plowed through this thread, but I am quite familiar with the electric comet model -- and the EU in general -- and I find the electric comet model to fit observation much better than xray-generating snow-cones.

Of course, being Maxwell C. Photon, I have a bit of a bias.
A week and two more posts from you later, Max Photon, and where do we stand?

Pretty much the same place as before you decided to post in this thread, wouldn't you say?
 
Small wager Tusenfem?

I predict the lander will encounter SOLID rock.

Scientist will be surprised at its denser than icy-fluffball consistency!

not sure if its gunna give as anything regarding the Oort Belt/Pristine left overs but Rosetta will tell us if they are Dirty Snowballs or solid bone dry rock.

Interesting times ahead and fully hope they achieve thier primary goal.

Go Rosetta

posted in the here for completeness :cool:
 
Small wager Tusenfem?
Small delusion, Sol88 :p?
Comets are not solid rock so you lose already.

Comet spotted! Rosetta's first sight of Churymov-Gerasimenko since wakeup (still a dot though)

Small question, Sol88: If the lander does not land on solid rock will you campaign for every mention of the electric comet fantasy to be removed the Thunderbolts book site?
IMO we will see excuses from the web site (it is not a comet/it never happened/the ice is actually solid rock/it is a lie/every other comet is made of solid rock.).
 
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Small wager Tusenfem?

I predict the lander will encounter SOLID rock.

Scientist will be surprised at its denser than icy-fluffball consistency!

not sure if its gunna give as anything regarding the Oort Belt/Pristine left overs but Rosetta will tell us if they are Dirty Snowballs or solid bone dry rock.

Interesting times ahead and fully hope they achieve thier primary goal.

Go Rosetta

posted in the here for completeness :cool:

Small wager Sol88, how about you addressing the facts that there are only four objects in the asteroid belt that show comas, and that other asteroids go through exactly the same space at the same time and for the same amounts or time?

My wager is that you don't have an actual answer, you haven't addressed it yet, there are other asteroids that go through the same regions of space, and for the same amounts of time yet they show not comas, they have more eccentric orbits and go through the same magic 'magnetosphere'.

So when will you answer Sol88 ?

i wager never.
 
I just came from a team meeting of the Rosetta RPC (Rosetta Plasma Consortium) at ESA HG (RPC now twitters under @Rosetta_RPC). The comet seems to be a bit more active at the moment than the last pass, 6 years ago.

All plasma instruments are working, so we will measure magnetic field, plasma composition, plasma waves, electric fields, electrons, and natrurally we will have 2 point measurements of some of these when Philae lands on the surface.

We are looking for the real first images of the surface to appear (just a few months patience guys and dolls!), however, we know from the few images we have of other comets, that the surface is varied, and indeed, if you look at them you see that there are regions which can only be identified as dust-filled regions. With the very small gravity on a comet, the dust does not compact as it does at larger bodies, so if Philae lands in one of those regions it could be catastrophic and the small lander could go in deeper than is appropriate, that would suck bigtime .

So you could even have a point, because a "rocky" but level surface will be looked for between arrival in August and landing on 11 November. Porous rock though, and we should avoid something that already might look like a vent. here is an interesting pdf on landing on a comet. Landing on a comet is really rocket science, it is frikking difficult.

So yes, there will be a solid underground, because it will be specifically chosen in that way.

The surface will have little volatiles, the comet has passed by the sun several times already, but the amount of water that was emitted (although it is a low activity one) was tremendous in the previous passages: 23000 kg per day only H2O!!!

Of course the dirty snowball was Whipple's idea from the 50s and nobody thinks about them like that anymore (except popular science presentations) and usually they say a snowy dirtball nowadays. We have learned about the surfaces of comets from the various flybys of Halley, Jacobini-Zinner, Grigg-Skjellerup, etc. Not that many, but enough to get knowledgeable about them. Read new stuff, e.g. the Comets II book, from Arizona Press, which will give you basically the latest view on this topic.

Okay, time to check my presentation for the SpaceUp tomorrow "magnetic ganymede".

Oh, and if you found that some guy in Austria talked about the "Electromagnetic Comet" than that would have been me :-)
 
The comet is now about four times as far from the Sun as the Earth is. Even from afar, the Sun’s heat is warming the comet’s ice, causing dust and vapor to carry out into space — forming the coma. The coma will develop into a long tail when the comet gets even closer to the sun.

Source

Could we call that a prediction from the current mainstream understanding?

The Suns thermal influence is the most pronounced? :D

The surface will have little volatiles, the comet has passed by the sun several times already, but the amount of water that was emitted (although it is a low activity one) was tremendous in the previous passages: 23000 kg per day only H2O!!!

Might have more than thought, Tusenfem?
 
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Small delusion, Sol88 :p?
Comets are not solid rock so you lose already.

Comet spotted! Rosetta's first sight of Churymov-Gerasimenko since wakeup (still a dot though)

Small question, Sol88: If the lander does not land on solid rock will you campaign for every mention of the electric comet fantasy to be removed the Thunderbolts book site?
IMO we will see excuses from the web site (it is not a comet/it never happened/the ice is actually solid rock/it is a lie/every other comet is made of solid rock.).

I think it would have a large bearing on the support it lends to one theory over another.

Loose Dirtball=Mainstream
Solid Rock=Electric Universe

Just saying :cool:
 
Just saying :cool:
Just saying that the evidence is that the EC model is rubbish and really idiotic to believe in :eek:
Just saying that your fantasy that a EC theory exists is just that - a fantasy, Sol88 :D.
Electric comets still do not exist! even without actually landing on one!
For example: Only people so stupid that they do not know that 0.6 is less than 3.0 would believe that comets are asteroids.
The rest of that debunking of the EC fantasy just emphasizes how much ignorance it would take to think that it was correct.
 
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Source

Could we call that a prediction from the current mainstream understanding?
It is a prediction from basic physics that the observed composition of comet nuclei means that gases will sublime from the solid ices when the Sun heats them up enough. That is what we see from comets - the relatively sudden formation of a coma and then a tail as in the Comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko images. The tails get longer as more gas sublimes and the solar wind stretches it out.

The prediction of coma formation from the EC fantasy is totally absent, Sol88 :eye-poppi!
And it would be really stupid of the EC fantasy to have a different "prediction" for the evolution of comet tails.

It’s Alive! Rosetta’s Comet Flares As It Approaches The Sun
Wow! This image shows the target comet for the Rosetta mission starting to develop a tail. This bodes well for the European Space Agency spacecraft, which is on its way to study Comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko later this year to learn more about the origins of the solar system.
 
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I think it would have a large bearing on the support it lends to one theory over another.

Loose Dirtball=Mainstream
Solid Rock=Electric Universe

Why doesn't the Electric Universe hypothesis make a prediction that actually involves electromagnetism in some way? Rosetta (particularly the orbiter) has a huge suite of capabilities for measuring electric and magnetic fields, thermal plasmas, nonthermal plasmas, etc.. If the comet has some wildly-misunderstood electromagnetic properties, this is how a scientist would actually study it. Why stick with this indirect "solid rock" claim?

(I'll go ahead and suggest an answer to my own question: because the "electric universe" belief system was constructed by people who don't know enough electromagnetism to understand what a Langmuir probe is, much less to translate "electric comet" theory into a Langmuir probe prediction.)
 
Why doesn't the Electric Universe hypothesis make a prediction that actually involves electromagnetism in some way? Rosetta (particularly the orbiter) has a huge suite of capabilities for measuring electric and magnetic fields, thermal plasmas, nonthermal plasmas, etc.. If the comet has some wildly-misunderstood electromagnetic properties, this is how a scientist would actually study it. Why stick with this indirect "solid rock" claim?

(I'll go ahead and suggest an answer to my own question: because the "electric universe" belief system was constructed by people who don't know enough electromagnetism to understand what a Langmuir probe is, much less to translate "electric comet" theory into a Langmuir probe prediction.)

yup
 
I think it would have a large bearing on the support it lends to one theory over another.

Loose Dirtball=Mainstream
Solid Rock=Electric Universe

Just saying :cool:

You can't even get it right, and why do you go to pop sites?

It is in the mainstream model a conglomeration of frozen volatiles, water and various pieces of proto system materials.

So, frozen CO2 and various stellar compounds is not a 'dirtball', ACHs are not 'dirtball" nor is water. So why not try to address a direct question;

Why are there only four bodies in the asteroid 'belt' that show comas?
Other asteroids go through the same space for the same durations and through the same planetary magnetospheres for the same times and duration.

yet they do not show comas?

Why?
 
So why not try to address a direct question;

Why are there only four bodies in the asteroid 'belt' that show comas?
Other asteroids go through the same space for the same durations and through the same planetary magnetospheres for the same times and duration.

yet they do not show comas?

Why?
Those four bodies in the asteroid belt have more negative charge than the other asteroids. Just as ALL the comets have different negative charge AND ALL the planets too. That's the answer DD and you have been given it many times!

They ALL set up Langmuir Sheaths.

In those four asteroids and all comets we call this effect "comas" and with planets we call it Magnetospheres.

Here look at this for a more detailed explanation of "The Electric Comet"

Enjoy :)
 
Those four bodies in the asteroid belt have more negative charge than the other asteroids.
What a great example of circular reasoning, Haig :eye-poppi!
With
* The idiocy of linking to a YouTube video!
* The implied inability to understand that 0.6 is not 3.0 (the basic ignorance of all EC proponents).

You have the fantasy that electric charge somehow vaporizes asteroid rock and makes it into water, CO2 and dust to form comet coma and tails. So anything that looks like a comet is an asteroid that has "more negative charge" that causes this magic to happen.
You ignore the fact that electric charges neutralizes so you will have to evoke even more magical thinking to explain that main-belt comets have comet like activity only during part of their orbits.
You ignore the probability that main-belt comets do not emit water or CO2 - just dust.

Main-belt comet
Main-belt comets (MBCs) are bodies orbiting within the asteroid belt which have shown comet-like activity during part of their orbit. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory defines a main-belt asteroid as an asteroid with a semi-major axis (average distance from the Sun) of more than 2 AU but less than 3.2 AU, and a perihelion (closest approach distance to the Sun) of no less than 1.6 AU.[1] David Jewitt from UCLA points out that these objects are most likely not comets with sublimating ice, but asteroids that exhibit dust activity, and hence he and others started calling these class of objects active asteroids.[2]

You also still seem ignorant about what the Electric Comet fantasy is, Haig and what the rebuttals are so as I pointed out to you on 26th August 2013 so: Electric comets still do not exist
Actually I did and we get the same insanity from them!
No answer to the simple facts:
  1. Comets have measured densities that are much less than that of rocks (asteroids).
  2. Comets may not have the composition of asteroids
  3. Deep Impact confirmed that comet nuclei are made of dust and ice not rock. There were a couple of surprises in that the dust was talcum powder rather than sand and the amount of ice was smaller than expected.
    "Analysis of data from the Swift X-ray telescope showed that the comet continued outgassing from the impact for 13 days, with a peak five days after impact. A total of 5 million kilograms (11 million pounds) of water[35] and between 10 and 25 million kilograms (22 and 55 million pounds) of dust were lost from the impact."WP
    Thus the water content of Comet Tempel 1 is 20% to 50%.
  4. Cometary dust as collected by the Stardust mission contain forms of carbon that are not in meteorites.
  5. Electric Comets I
  6. Electric Comets II: References
  7. Electric Comets III: No EU X-rays (actually no EU X-ray bursts).
  8. The EC assumption of EDM machining does not produce jets.
  9. EDM in the EC idea needs a dielectric material which does not exist!
  10. No EDM sparks are seen in images of comet nuclei.
  11. No EDM hot spots are seen in thermal maps of Tempel 1.
  12. Voltage potentials are many orders of magnitude too small.
  13. EC predicts that 100,000's of asteroids should be comets
  14. Water, water everywhere (except in the EC idea)
  15. EC proponents have the delusion that argument by YouTube video is somehow scientific :eek:!
  16. EC proponents may think that EC comets switch off at perihelion?
Wow - try learning to read, Haig :jaw-dropp!
The Thunderbolts team are just repeating the same ignorance of science and even English: They think that "before he impact" means "at the impact" :eek::
The lies, failures and successes of Thunderbolts Deep Impact predictions.
 
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