The Electric Comet theory

Reality Check · Dec 4, 2014

Sol88: Is "ice at the jet source" how we know comets produce jets and OH-

Sol88 said:
...usual ranting snipped...

Your ignorance about comets has lead to a lie, Sol88:
"You do not know if sublimation is the cause of the jets and the source of the OH- " is a lie since science knows

comets are made of ices and dust +
ices sublimate in the conditions on comets +
H2O disassociates in sunlight.

You should know that thinking that we have to find ice at the source of jets to know how comets produce jets and OH- is totally ignorant (almost enough to be delusional

). But just in case:
5 December 2014 Sol88: Is "ice at the jet source" how we know comets produce jets and OH-?

To be added to:

Reality Check · Dec 4, 2014

Sol88 said:
YOU ASSUME WATER ICE ON/UNDER THE SURFACE OF THE COMET AND YOU HAVE NOT SAMPLED ICE WITH PHILAE (but you did hit a "hard" surface as detected by MUPUS)

Two lies there, Sol88:

I DO NOT ASSUME. ONLY IDIOTS WOULD THINK THAT COMETS ARE NOT MADE OF ICES AND DUST BECAUSE THAY HAVE BEEN MEASURED AS BEING MADE OF ICES AND DUST !
WE DO NOT HAVE TO SAMPLE A COMET TO KNOW THAT THEY ARE MADE OF ICE AND DUST BUT WE HAVE !
Philae settles in dust-covered ice
Philae Lander Early Science Results: Ice, Organic Molecules and Half a Foot of Dust
MUPUS FOUND A HARD ICE SUB-SURFACE.

There is a possibility of some total idiocy in that sentence if by "THE COMET" you mean 67P because it means that you have the delusion that there are instrument's looking UNDER THE SURFACE for WATER ICE!
There are instruments looking UNDER THE SURFACE but they are not sampling for WATER ICE.

Haig · Dec 4, 2014

Reality Check said:
Jean Tate pointed out that no electric comet proponent has cited evidence for "for an approximately radially symmetric electric field, centered on the Sun, with a potential drop of "billions of volts" between ~the Sun's corona and ~the heliosphere".
This is what the electric comet people seem to really want - real world measurements of a real world phenomena !

This paper is a step in the right direction

Magnetic-field-aligned electric fields associated with Debye-scale plasma structures

Abstract
Quasi-static, magnetic-field-aligned (parallel) potentials have been considered the primary source of charged particle acceleration in the aurora where precipitating electrons create a visible display. This finding has been controversial since, at one time, it was widely believed that parallel potentials could not be supported by a collisionless plasma. We present observations from the fast auroral snapshot (FAST) satellite which strongly support this acceleration mechanism and, moreover, show evidence of a second plasma regime region which supports quasi-static parallel potentials. The uncovering of parallel potentials in two plasma regimes suggests that they may be fundamental in astrophysical plasmas, supplementing the classical mechanisms of Fermi and betatron acceleration. We summarize the observations that demonstrate this acceleration mechanism. We also summarize evidence of Debye-scale plasma structures which are associated with these parallel potentials. These small-scale structures appear to be three-dimensional electron phase space holes, a new type of plasma structure.

so is this paper

Magnetosphere-ionosphere interactions —near-Earth manifestations of the plasma Universe

Abstract
As the Universe consists almost entirely of plasma, the understanding of astrophysical phenomena must depend critically on our understanding of how matter behaves in the plasma state.In situ observations in the near-Earth cosmical plasma offer an excellent opportunity of gaining such understanding. The near-Earth cosmical plasma not only covers vast ranges of density and temperature, but is the site of a rich variety of complex plasma physical processes which are activated as a result of the interactions between the magnetosphere and the ionosphere.
The geomagnetic field connects the ionosphere, tied by friction to the Earth, and the magnetosphere, dynamically coupled to the solar wind. This causes an exchange of energy and momentum between the two regions. The exchange is executed by magnetic-field aligned electric currents, the so-called Birkeland currents. Both directly and indirectly (through instabilities and particle acceleration) these also lead to an exchange of plasma, which is selective and therefore causes chemical separation. Another essential aspect of the coupling is the role of electric fields, especially magnetic-field aligned (‘parallel’) electric fields, which have important consequences both for the dynamics of the coupling and, especially, for energization of charged particles.

Also this PDF

Direct Observation of Localized Parallel Electric Fields in a Space Plasma
http://sprg.ssl.berkeley.edu/adminstuff/webpubs/2001_prl_045003.pdf

Reality Check · Dec 5, 2014

Haig said:
This paper is a step in the right direction

Nice science with nothing to do with the electric comet delusion, so unfortunately exposing your ignorance about comets and inability to read, Haig

.

Magnetic-field-aligned electric fields associated with Debye-scale plasma structures published in 1999.
The Debye length of plasma associated with comets is on the scale of meters (the solar wind is 10 meters!)

Magnetosphere-ionosphere interactions —near-Earth manifestations of the plasma Universe published in 1988.
Earth is not a comet :jaw-dropp

!

Direct Observation of Localized Parallel Electric Fields in a Space Plasma
http://sprg.ssl.berkeley.edu/adminstuff/webpubs/2001_prl_045003.pdf[/QUOTE] published in 2001 is a letter about the aurora on Earth!

Sol88 · Dec 5, 2014

Reality Check said:
Your ignorance about comets has lead to a lie, Sol88:
"You do not know if sublimation is the cause of the jets and the source of the OH- " is a lie since science knows

comets are made of ices and dust +

ices sublimate in the conditions on comets +

H2O disassociates in sunlight.

You should know that thinking that we have to find ice at the source of jets to know how comets produce jets and OH- is totally ignorant (almost enough to be delusional ). But just in case:
5 December 2014 Sol88: Is "ice at the jet source" how we know comets produce jets and OH-?

To be added to:

5th August 2009 Sol88: Now where in the many published papers on the electric comet idea is the prediction that the electrical discharges are of duration 10-15 ms (your claim)?

5th August 2009 Sol88, How does the electric comet idea explain main-belt comets?

17 November 2014 Sol88: Please cite the announcement of the discovery of hard rock (not "rock stuff" but the solid rock your theory demands) on comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko.

17 November 2014 Sol88: Present the electric comet calculation of the density of comets

18 November 2014 Sol88: Present the electric comet calculation of the amount of surface ice on 67P (no detected surface ice).

18 November 2014 Sol88: Present the electric comet calculation of the amount of surface ice on Tempel 1 where surface ice was found

18 November 2014 Sol88: Please present the electric comet calculation for the electric charge differential around comets and show that it matches the measurements.

20 November 2014 Sol88: Can you understand that the Thunderbolts authors even lie about predictions

20 November 2014 Sol88: Can you understand the significant delusions on that Thunderbolts web page on 67P "predictions"?

24 November 2014 Sol88: Please cite the electric comet predictions for the albedo of comet nuclei (actual numbers not fantasies!)

1 December 2014: A rather pathetic attempt to answer the above questions (mostly repeats of ignorance and fantasies).

2 December 2014: Sol88 does not notice that Wal Thornhill narrates an ignorant and deluded video about 67P!

3 December 2014 Sol88: What about the jets is specifically predicted by the electric comet fantasy to be confirmed by the OSIRIS instrument?

3 December 2014 Sol88: What does the electric comet fantasy predict about jet locations, especially on 67P?

4 December 2014 Sol88: how much water/water ice on/in 67P to account for the observed OH, does the electric comet fantasy come up with?

No Reality Check, you are wrong.

Because we see OH^- then there MUST be water on the surface except we've found not enough for the out gassing on the surface of ANY comet so it MUST be subsurface, when we went to hammer in to the water ICE that was expected we found

"This is a surprise! We did not expect to find such hard ice below the surface"

,

“If we compare the data with laboratory measurements, we think that the probe encountered a hard surface with strength comparable to that of solid ice,”

So you had an experiment to find out about the ICE that comets are made off and you didn't make it strong enough for it's primary purpose...shame :blush:

BTW your link does not say they found water ice just a HARD surface comparable to ice.

How hard can the hardest ice be and MUPUS was still not be able to penetrate the surface. Is this some new form of DARK ice?

So the surface that MUPUS encountered was categorically ICE? Everything else can be ruled out?

Even though it looks like rock? which is also HARD

Belz... · Dec 5, 2014

Sol88 said:
Cart before the horse again old mate, cart before the horse

What a useful but transparent dodge...

Reality Check · Dec 5, 2014

Sol88 said:
No Reality Check, you are wrong.

No I am not Soll88: Because we see OH^- then there MUST be water on or below the surface :jaw-dropp

.

Philae settles in dust-covered ice
Philae Lander Early Science Results: Ice, Organic Molecules and Half a Foot of Dust
and
We see OH^- then there MUST be water on or below the surface, thus a component of that ice that was detected must be water ice :jaw-dropp

!

Now a person totally ignorant about comets could insanely demand that pure and only water ice be detected

. But comets are mixtures of ices (plural) and dust. Or to put it another way - the ice is H2O + CO + CH4 + lots of other stuff ice.

Haig · Dec 5, 2014

Reality Check said:
Nice science with nothing to do with the electric comet delusion, so unfortunately exposing your ignorance about comets and inability to read, Haig .

so unfortunately exposing your ignorance about comets and inability to read, Reality Check

.

The question was ...

Jean Tate pointed out that no electric comet proponent has cited evidence for "for an approximately radially symmetric electric field, centered on the Sun, with a potential drop of "billions of volts" between ~the Sun's corona and ~the heliosphere".

These papers give evidence for electric fields in the Sun-Earth connection in part answer to JT above, plus a lot more ... remember Electric Comets require an Electric Sun

Magnetic-field-aligned electric fields associated with Debye-scale plasma structures
electric fields associated with Debye-scale plasma structures : The uncovering of parallel potentials in two plasma regimes suggests that they may be fundamental in astrophysical plasmas,

Magnetosphere-ionosphere interactions —near-Earth manifestations of the plasma Universe
The exchange is executed by magnetic-field aligned electric currents, the so-called Birkeland currents : Another essential aspect of the coupling is the role of electric fields, especially magnetic-field aligned (‘parallel’) electric fields

Direct Observation of Localized Parallel Electric Fields in a Space Plasma
http://sprg.ssl.berkeley.edu/adminst...prl_045003.pdf
These observations suggest that parallel electric fields are localized and are associated with the generation of large-amplitude electron phase-space holes and plasma waves.

Reality Check · Dec 5, 2014

Haig: Quote the sections about the potential drop between the corona and heliosphere

Haig said:
so ...snipped delusions about 3 citations....

So making your citations really idiotic, Haig :jaw-dropp

?
The question was:

Jean Tate pointed out that no electric comet proponent has cited evidence for "for an approximately radially symmetric electric field, centered on the Sun, with a potential drop of "billions of volts" between ~the Sun's corona and ~the heliosphere".

And we have three citations

not about the corona
not about the hemisphere
not a measurement of a potential drop of "billions of volts"
not about a radially symmetric electric field, centered on the Sun :duh:

I will make this clear for you Haig:
5 December 2014 Haig: Please quote the section in Magnetic-field-aligned electric fields associated with Debye-scale plasma structures that measures or describes the potential drop between the corona and heliosphere.
5 December 2014 Haig: Please quote the section in Magnetosphere-ionosphere interactions —near-Earth manifestations of the plasma Universe that measures or describes the potential drop between the corona and heliosphere.
5 December 2014 Haig: Please quote the section in Direct Observation of Localized Parallel Electric Fields in a Space Plasma that measures or describes the potential drop between the corona and heliosphere.

If unanswered these questions will be added to:

Haig · Dec 5, 2014

Haig said:
so unfortunately exposing your ignorance about comets and inability to read, Reality Check .

The question was ...

These papers give evidence for electric fields in the Sun-Earth connection in part answer to JT above, plus a lot more ... remember Electric Comets require an Electric Sun

Magnetic-field-aligned electric fields associated with Debye-scale plasma structures
electric fields associated with Debye-scale plasma structures : The uncovering of parallel potentials in two plasma regimes suggests that they may be fundamental in astrophysical plasmas,

Magnetosphere-ionosphere interactions —near-Earth manifestations of the plasma Universe
The exchange is executed by magnetic-field aligned electric currents, the so-called Birkeland currents : Another essential aspect of the coupling is the role of electric fields, especially magnetic-field aligned (‘parallel’) electric fields

Direct Observation of Localized Parallel Electric Fields in a Space Plasma
http://sprg.ssl.berkeley.edu/adminst...prl_045003.pdf
These observations suggest that parallel electric fields are localized and are associated with the generation of large-amplitude electron phase-space holes and plasma waves.

Just a neat reminder that we are in a dynamic electric Sun-Earth connection that affects, not just us here on earth, but Electric Comets too.

M Class Solar Flare, Galactic Magnetics | S0 News December 4, 2014

Planck reveals invisible

Sumptuous images of dust and magnetic field of the Milky Way, the map "ultimate" temperature radiation but also the interaction map between CMB and the hot electrons that populate the clusters and super-clusters of galaxies

Where there are magnetic fields you naturally have the electric currents (Birkland currents) causing them. We live in the EU/PC

Tolls · Dec 5, 2014

Sol88 said:
So you had an experiment to find out about the ICE that comets are made off and you didn't make it strong enough for it's primary purpose...shame

You do realise that not all ice formations have the same hardness, don't you?
They didn't expect solid (block) ice so close to the surface, so the hammer wasn't built to penetrate solid ice.

It's the difference between the various ice layers in a freezer that hasn't been defrosted for years.

tusenfem · Dec 5, 2014

Haig said:
so unfortunately exposing your ignorance about comets and inability to read, Reality Check .

The question was ...

These papers give evidence for electric fields in the Sun-Earth connection in part answer to JT above, plus a lot more ... remember Electric Comets require an Electric Sun

Magnetic-field-aligned electric fields associated with Debye-scale plasma structures
electric fields associated with Debye-scale plasma structures : The uncovering of parallel potentials in two plasma regimes suggests that they may be fundamental in astrophysical plasmas,

Magnetosphere-ionosphere interactions —near-Earth manifestations of the plasma Universe
The exchange is executed by magnetic-field aligned electric currents, the so-called Birkeland currents : Another essential aspect of the coupling is the role of electric fields, especially magnetic-field aligned (‘parallel’) electric fields

Direct Observation of Localized Parallel Electric Fields in a Space Plasma
http://sprg.ssl.berkeley.edu/adminst...prl_045003.pdf
These observations suggest that parallel electric fields are localized and are associated with the generation of large-amplitude electron phase-space holes and plasma waves.

OMG, are we now going to get deluged with all mainstream space physics papers which deal with (field aligned) electric fields?

Okay, here is a (co-authored) paper of mine discussing the topic of "Electric fields with a large parallel component observed by the Freja spacecraft: Artifacts or real signals?

Conclusion: "Unless unknown mechanisms strongly affect the validity of double-probe measurements in some circumstances, it is then concluded that an electric field with a parallel component 2-3 orders of magnitude larger than expected from the theory of kinetic Alfvén waves can develop in the topside ionosphere. "

However, results obtained from previous missions are no guarantee for any future electric comets

But I hope you understood in e.g. your first linked paper that it says "Debye-scale plasma structures"

tusenfem · Dec 5, 2014

Tolls said:
You do realise that not all ice formations have the same hardness, don't you?
They didn't expect solid (block) ice so close to the surface, so the hammer wasn't built to penetrate solid ice.

It's the difference between the various ice layers in a freezer that hasn't been defrosted for years.

It can also well be that the top layer below the dust is actually a mixture of the fine dust and ice, which can significantly increase the hardness of the material.

tusenfem · Dec 5, 2014

Haig said:
Never mind, I couldn't find a pdf of krishna swami's book anywhere on the internet but I did find this ...

Its just NASA JPL but they do give what appears to be up to date information on comets.

The first part is just the old Dirty Snowball but later it seems much more plasma sheath like ...

How Does a Comet Work?

[qimg]http://rosetta.jpl.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/activeNucleus.gif[/qimg]

Compare the second half with this Electric Comet ...

The Electrical Nature of Comets

I have no idea what the link is between the second half of the NASA quote and the EC quote.

Also I doubt that the "collimated jets hold their shape for "tens of millions of km", I would love to see a real observation of that. The biggest influence region of a comet is from 1P/Halley, of which the coma has a size of about 1 million km in diameter.

Again, there is the EDM very prominently there, however, I would like so see some actual evidence for EDM-ing, which should be measurable in e.g. the field instruments.

What is the reaction rate of negative oxygen, EMDed from the surface with the solar wind protons? Such things are actually known, that is a whole science on itself, to calculate chemical reaction rates also for plasmas.

To bad you cannot find Krishna Swamy's book, but Amazon has it and I think there is an older version (2nd edition) in paperback which sets you back like 12 euros or so.

tusenfem · Dec 5, 2014

Haig said:
Where there are magnetic fields you naturally have the electric currents (Birkland currents) causing them. We live in the EU/PC

Okay, can we please stop the nonsense!
Birkeland currents are a specific kind of magnetic field aligned currents in the Earth's magnetosphere. Please note: magnetic field aligned!

Now it has come into fashion to call any magnetic field aligned current a Birkeland current. I am strictly against this, but I cannot stop this, anywhooooo

Saying "where there are magnetic fields you naturally have currents" is wrong, you need to specify at least that you are looking at a plasma. Secondly, linking then to Birkeland currents makes absolutely no sense, because field aligned currents cannot generate the magnetic fields that they are aligned with. That is basic electrodynamics. The source of the magnetic fields in space is NOT field aligned currents.

Haig · Dec 5, 2014

tusenfem said:
Okay, can we please stop the nonsense!
Birkeland currents are a specific kind of magnetic field aligned currents in the Earth's magnetosphere. Please note: magnetic field aligned!

Now it has come into fashion to call any magnetic field aligned current a Birkeland current. I am strictly against this, but I cannot stop this, anywhooooo

Saying "where there are magnetic fields you naturally have currents" is wrong, you need to specify at least that you are looking at a plasma. Secondly, linking then to Birkeland currents makes absolutely no sense, because field aligned currents cannot generate the magnetic fields that they are aligned with. That is basic electrodynamics. The source of the magnetic fields in space is NOT field aligned currents.

You may be against this but that doesn't mean you are right!

Birkeland current

A Birkeland current usually refers to the electric currents in a planet's ionosphere that follows magnetic field lines (ie field-aligned currents), and sometimes used to described any field-aligned electric current in a space plasma.[3] They are caused by the movement of a plasma perpendicular to a magnetic field. Birkeland currents often show filamentary, or twisted "rope-like" magnetic structure. They are also known as field-aligned currents, magnetic ropes and magnetic cables).

Describing plasma cables, Hannes Alfvén wrote:
"Plasma cables seem to be reasonably stable formations which can be considered as structures important for the understanding of plasma phenomena. (Of course, their interior structure should be described by classical theory.) The plasma cables are either filaments or 'flattened filaments' (sheets with limited extent). They carry an electric current parallel to the magnetic field, and this is what gives them their properties. The cables are often very efficient in transferring electromagnetic power from one region to another. They are embedded in passive plasmas, which have essentially the same properties in all directions around the cables. They are 'insulated' from their surroundings by a thin cylindrical electrostatic sheath (or double layer) which reduces the interaction with its exterior. In the magnetosphere and upper ionosphere, the density in the cable is sometimes lower than the surrounding passive plasma (Block and Fälthammar, 1968)[11]. In other cases, the density in the cable may be much larger than the surroundings because ionized matter is pumped into the cable from the outside. By selectively doing so, the chemical composition in the cable may differ from that of its exterior (Marklund, 1978, 1979)[12] (see Marklund convection). Besides the cylindrical electrostatic sheath, there are often longitudinal double layers, in which a considerable part of the power which the cable transmits may be converted into high energy particles. The double layers sometimes explode, and this produces excessively high energy particles." [13]

Just consider this

The source of the magnetic fields in Space IS electric currents

Planck reveals invisible A sky submillimeter clearer than ever

This video clip explains it HERE

Edit:
It reminds me of what David Talbot said on this thread recently "There are no isolated islands in an Electric Universe"

Haig · Dec 5, 2014

tusenfem said:
I have no idea what the link is between the second half of the NASA quote and the EC quote.

Read it again and you may understand.

Mainstream comet theory morphing into their version of the Electric Comet hypothesis

To bad you cannot find Krishna Swamy's book, but Amazon has it and I think there is an older version (2nd edition) in paperback which sets you back like 12 euros or so.

I can get it even cheaper on eBay but I won't bother now, I'm waiting for the on-line version.

How else can a copy 'n paste numpty like me handle it?

tusenfem · Dec 5, 2014

Haig said:
You may be against this but that doesn't mean you are right!

Birkeland current

Citing Ian Tresman's website, is not citing a real science source, that is a reasonably well informed amateur in plasma universe with a hang to EU.

If you would just look into the history of what Birkeland currents are, then you would understand that they are specifically named after Birkeland because of his idea that there are strong field aligned currents driving the aurora. When they were discovered in actual in-situ measurements, they were called Birkeland currents.

Unfortunately, there is the tendency to call any and all field aligned currents Birkeland currents, which is just wrong from a historic point of view.

Haig said:
Just consider this

The source of the magnetic fields in Space IS electric currents

Yes, and I did not say that that was NOT the case.
Just out of educational grounds I felt the need to point attention to the fact that field aligned currents cannot generate the magnetic fields that they are flowing along, because of Maxwell's equations (which I hope you don't put to question). And thus saying that the source of magnetic fields in space is currents and then linking to a description of Birkeland currents makes no sense because they cannot be the source of the magnetic fields in space.

Haig said:
Edit:
It reminds me of what David Talbot said on this thread recently "There are no isolated islands in an Electric Universe"

Whatever that may mean.

tusenfem · Dec 5, 2014

Haig said:
Read it again and you may understand.

Mainstream comet theory morphing into their version of the Electric Comet hypothesis

I can get it even cheaper on eBay but I won't bother now, I'm waiting for the on-line version.

How else can a copy 'n paste numpty like me handle it?

There IS no "morphing" to the EC model.

Now please answer me where the evidence for the discharges is in the data.
(don't bother, I know you are not going to show that, neither is Sol (but then I am ignoring him anyway) and neither is David)

Belz... · Dec 5, 2014

Haig said:
Mainstream comet theory morphing into their version of the Electric Comet hypothesis

No, it really isn't.

The Electric Comet theory

Penultimate Amazing

Penultimate Amazing

Graduate Poster

Penultimate Amazing

Philosopher

Fiend God

Penultimate Amazing

Graduate Poster

Penultimate Amazing

Graduate Poster

Philosopher

Illuminator

Illuminator

Illuminator

Illuminator

Graduate Poster

Graduate Poster

Illuminator

Illuminator

Fiend God