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The dreaded "A" word

Slowvehicle said:
I could be wrong, but I believe Corea Neto's statement is to be read in the voice of one of the rabid religious, not as a personal statement of opinion...
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Still there is not shortage of posters who routinely state that religious believers are delusional and then turn around and complain that religious believers insist that there is something wrong with those who don't believe in God.
 
epix said:
Give me a detailed breakdown and analysis of your claim stated in your first and second paragraph and maybe I'll get back to you.
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OK, here it is. Go the the Home Page of this Forum. I will even be helpful and give you the link.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php

Now, on the right hand side after each sub Forum Header, it shows the number of "posts" in each sub Forum. Each "post" represents what somebody has "posted", i.e., has actually typed out on their keyboard and eventually hit the "enter" button.

As I "type" this on my "keyboard", here are some results which you are capable of verifying by something called "research". This means click on my link (above) and compare the figures I am about to cite, with what you can see with your own "eyes"

Religion & Philosophy 1,073,018 Posts
Conspiracy Theories 1,162,745 Posts
American Politics 1,251,876 Posts
Social Issues 770,208 Posts
Forum Community 1,446,265

Wow! The Community sub Forum with 1.45 Million "posts", where people do what people do in the workplace over coffee and next to the water cooler - just chat about nothing in particular - is the most popular sub Forum on the Board. Now that's a shock - many people here just like to chat!

Now "scroll down" (do you need instructions?) to near the bottom of the Forum, and you might find this figure

Total Posts: 9,405,871

So, 1 Million from 9 Million leaves 8 Million posts where people here are not talking about religion.

Your turn.

Norm
 
I'm really hoping epix isn't going to get started on his usual numerology nonsense...
 
fromdownunder said:
OK, here it is. Go the the Home Page of this Forum. I will even be helpful and give you the link.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php

Now, on the right hand side after each sub Forum Header, it shows the number of "posts" in each sub Forum. Each "post" represents what somebody has "posted", i.e., has actually typed out on their keyboard and eventually hit the "enter" button.

As I "type" this on my "keyboard", here are some results which you are capable of verifying by something called "research". This means click on my link (above) and compare the figures I am about to cite, with what you can see with your own "eyes"

Religion & Philosophy 1,073,018 Posts
Conspiracy Theories 1,162,745 Posts
American Politics 1,251,876 Posts
Social Issues 770,208 Posts
Forum Community 1,446,265

Wow! The Community sub Forum with 1.45 Million "posts", where people do what people do in the workplace over coffee and next to the water cooler - just chat about nothing in particular - is the most popular sub Forum on the Board. Now that's a shock - many people here just like to chat!

Now "scroll down" (do you need instructions?) to near the bottom of the Forum, and you might find this figure

Total Posts: 9,405,871

So, 1 Million from 9 Million leaves 8 Million posts where people here are not talking about religion.

Your turn.

Norm
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That's wonderful but you didn't comprehend my request and underlying issue, which is apparent in my post. Plainly speaking, the "Religion and Philosophy" forum has been hijacked by the atheists who are not capable of setting up their own Internet forum outside JREF. There is no way that two or more religious folks could exchange ideas on a religious issue without embarrassing and often hateful, offensive interjection on the part of an atheist member. The same goes for issue in philosophy, even though such topic would have a better chance of surviving.

I don't overly mind the hijacking, because it gives you the opportunity to study the close relationship between religious fanaticism and strict atheism. It's fun too. :D

I guess a-theism is a complete opposite: if the Christian community have its own Internet forums, the atheists will not follow suit. That the Curse of the Dreaded letter "A", I guess.
 
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mijopaalmc said:
It's interesting that you think that presenting further examples of non-correspondence between "a-philately" and "atheism" supports efforts to "burn the straw man". The entire objection to the "a-philately" is not at all like "atheism" either in an abstract, conceptual sense or in a concrete, practical sense. Presenting reasons why atheists have started to form an atheist identity only re-inforces the difference between "a-philately" and "atheism" and doesn't answer the primary issue that atheists who most strongly self-identify as atheist tend to couch their atheism in terms of overt and ostentatious opposition to religion and belief in the supernatural, while simultaneously asserting the atheism as "only" the lack of belief in the supernatural. Moreover they further problematize their approach by likening other atheists who disagree with them to as "Neville Chamberlain" and devising label that clearly stigmatize their opponents in their eyes.

In other words, the behavior of strongly self-identified "atheist" contradicts their assertions that "atheism" is "only" about the the lack of belief in the supernatural, because they have drawn vivid distinctions between others who share their same lack of belief, distinctions that should not exist simply due to the fact they also define atheism as lack of the belief in the supernatural. Such a concept of atheism cannot therefore be reasonably analogous to "a-philately", if a-philately is "only" not collecting stamps, because:

  1. philately is an action, not belief
    • no-one denies the existence of:
      • stamps
      • postal services that used stamps
    • stamps are the central concern of philately, just as the supernatural is the central concern of religion
    • an "a-philatelist", per the usual presentation of the analogy simply does not collect stamps, whereas an atheist lacks a belief in the supernatural and consequently does not practice a religion that requires a belief in the supernatural
  2. the existence of philately is not disputed
    • the central issues of any discussion of atheism are:
      • the logical possibility of an entity that possesses the properties of the supernatural
      • the physical possibility of such an entity given current scientific knowledge
    • Neither (2a) nor (2b) pertain to stamps
  3. "a-philatelists" are an artificial category of "non-hobbyists" because:
    • being an "a-philatelist" doesn't preclude one from having other hobbies
    • having other hobbies doen't preclude one for being an "a-philatelist"
  4. Being an "a-philatelist" is therefore neither necessary nor sufficient for being a "non-hobbyist", whereas, by commonly definition of atheist being an atheist is sufficient for not practicing a religion
  5. "a-philately" does not serve as a basis for a common identity in the same way that many "atheists" claim their "atheism" does because
    • "a-philately" is a socially stigmatized activity
    • "a- philatelists" do not oppose philately
    • "a-philatelists" don't tend to stigmatize one another by virtue of the way each "a-philatelist" refrains from collecting stamps.
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So the only true atheists would be those who never discuss god?
 
Snarf said:
I know the feeling quite well, and it doesn't get any easier with age. Whenever I have any kind of back-and-forth with a believer, eventually, if I probe deep enough and hard enough, the final answer is always the same: "Well, you just gotta believe".
Which is about the most depressingly unsatisfying answer I can think of that you could give to a non-believer.
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That's what all apologetics eventually boil down to.
 
epix said:
That's wonderful but you didn't comprehend my request and underlying issue, which is apparent in my post.
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Well, I have given up mind reading for Lent. If you have a point, why not explain it up front. It makes responding so much easier.

Plainly speaking, the "Religion and Philosophy" forum has been hijacked by the atheists who are not capable of setting up their own Internet forum outside JREF.
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There are many, possibly hundreds of atheist forums outside of JREF (and BTW, JREF is not an atheist forum), and here, the Religion and Philosophy sub forum is not even the most popular one, as I have already pointed out, and you chose to ignore. I have been a member of at least a dozen such forums over the past 15 years, and even moderated one (the old Internet Infidels Forum) .

There is no way that two or more religious folks could exchange ideas on a religious issue without embarrassing and often hateful, offensive interjection on the part of an atheist member.
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There are plenty of Religious Forums out there, I used to a member of several, and I was a member of the biggest of them all - Christian Forums. Most of them, of course ban atheists and agnostics. And some do not accept any member of any other Religion - Rapture Ready for example bans Roman Catholics and Muslims on sight and often has posts insulting RC's, the largest Christian sect on the planet. And if you are a Muslim, just try to join and get your point of view over on many of these Boards.

Can you say the same of more tolerant Forums such as the Freethought and Rational Discussion Forum? You really have led a sheltered life if you think that one tiny sub Forum on a relatively tiny Bulletin Board is all there is.


The same goes for issue in philosophy, even though such topic would have a better chance of surviving.
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Please explain this in English

I don't overly mind the hijacking, because it gives you the opportunity to study the close relationship between religious fanaticism and strict atheism. It's fun too. :D
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Please explain how discussion of Religion in a sub forum headed Religion is hijacking?

I guess a-theism is a complete opposite: if the Christian community have its own Internet forums, the atheists will not follow suit. That the Curse of the Dreaded letter "A", I guess.
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Christians, Atheists, Muslims, Stamp Collectors, Coin Collectors, Travel Enthusiasts, and pretty much anything you else you can think of have forums on the Internet. You really have led a sheltered life, haven't you? Your inability to even google to try and find out facts does explain a lot of your posts though.

Norm
 
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(Responding directly to the O.P., not the current position in the thread)

Funny. I'm floating the other way around on it. I'm not particularly fond of the "A" word anymore, but I used to be fine with it. I generally just prefer to say that I don't follow any particular religion. It's become a label of sorts, and I don't really want to identify as part of some arbitrary grouping of people. I don't even call myself a "skeptic" per se, although I enjoy this forum and have contributed to JREF in the past.

Is my uber-individualist side showing? Sorry. I'll try to put some clothes back on.
 
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mijopaalmc said:
[*]the central issues of any discussion of atheism are:
  • the logical possibility of an entity that possesses the properties of the supernatural
  • the physical possibility of such an entity given current scientific knowledge
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You must have made this observation outside this forum, because the local atheists do not distinguish proof from evidence.
 
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mijopaalmc said:
It's interesting that you think that presenting further examples of non-correspondence between "a-philately" and "atheism" supports efforts to "burn the straw man".
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Not at all.

It was mijopaalmc, in post 63, who brought up the aphilatelists vs atheists strawman argument in the first place!

Stating that, since aphilatelists are not obsessed with, or do not discuss not collecting stamps, and then claiming that this is some kind of ideal behaviour that atheists should aspire to, is the strawman argument.

Putting up a bunch of comparisons that point to the strawman nature of the argument is a fair rebuttal, and RSLancastr's post does just that.

Perhaps the the point of his post escapes you. It certainly didn't escape me, that's why I applauded it.
 
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epix said:
Plainly speaking, the "Religion and Philosophy" forum has been hijacked by the atheists who are not capable of setting up their own Internet forum outside JREF
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Err, excuse me but AFAICS a "Religion and Philosophy" forum is for the discussion of Religion and Philosophy.

You do not have to be religious or believe in God to participate in a Religion & Philosophy forum any more than you have to be a philisopher. You don't have to be an astronomer to participate in an astronomy forum or a scientist to participate in a science form.

Incidentally you should be aware that Religion forums and threads may have participants with polytheistic belief systems, such as Shinto, Hindism and Taoism. These are religions too!!

Lastly. How often to we get the the JREF God Squad spouting their Christian doctrine/dogma in the non-religion forums here. Very frequently it seems.
 
smartcooky said:
Stating that, since aphilatelists are not obsessed with, or do not discuss not collecting stamps, and then claiming that this is some kind of ideal behaviour that atheists should aspire to, is the strawman argument.
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That's not what I said, though, so, if that is what RSLancaster is arguing agains, it is he that has set up the straw man.

smartcooky said:
Putting up a bunch of comparisons that point to the strawman nature of the argument is a fair bebuttal, and RSLancastr's post does just that.
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Since you assert that I said something that said something I didn't and argue against what I didn't say, I suggest you consider what the pot said to the kettle.

smartcooky said:
Perhaps the the point of his post escapes you.
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No, I understand what he is claiming just fine, but, it is based on a distortion of my argument and is therefore not a refutation of what I actually said.

smartcooky said:
It certainly didn't escape me, that's why I applauded it.
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Do you usually appluad when people knock scarecrows?
 
fromdownunder said:
Well, I have given up mind reading for Lent. If you have a point, why not explain it up front. It makes responding so much easier.
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I explained the issue plain and clear to someone else before you got involved and that someone else didn't have the same problem as you had tripping over a simple issue. I've learned not to get into discussion with someone who can't get a simple stuff for the first time.
 
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VanillaCone said:
What is organized atheism? How can the lack of something be organized? That would be like organizing a league to not play football. What would be the point?
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No, given how Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, Myers have addressed their atheism: organized atheism is more akin to setting up an association oppose the playing any sport, because they lack a belief in teamwork.
 
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mijopaalmc said:
No, given how Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, Myers have addressed their atheism: organized atheism is more akin to setting up an association oppose the playing any sport, because they lack a belief in teamwork.
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You're talking about anti-theism. Totally different from atheism.
 
mijopaalmc said:
But that what the aforementioned people promote under the claim that it is atheism.
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That may be true, but it seems like their defining, common characteristic is that they think religion is bad for people. That's a step beyond mere non-belief.
 
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