The DeSantis gambit

[Segnosaur]

Not really that curious.

There are a lot of reasons people might move to Florida.... Better weather conditions in Florida as compared to New York, plus the higher number of people in California/NY keeps housing prices high. The ability to have year-round amusement parks brings in tourist jobs.

Much of that has little to do with what the state government is doing, and even an incompetent boob like Meatball Ron can't completely overcome the natural advantages that Florida has.

California has better weather than Florida, so that's really no explanation at all.

Go back and look at what I wrote. I specifically said Florida has better weather than NEW YORK. (They also have better weather than Chicago, Detroit, etc.) They many not have better weather than California, but the better weather still explains much of the immigration to the state from northern areas.

And property prices in California and New York aren't high simply because of the number of people who live there.

No, but its a factor. I could also point out that both NY and California have higher GDP per capita, which is also probably going to drive up housing prices.

Furthermore, New York actually has fewer people in it than Florida.

You're right they do. I should have pointed out that New York has a higher population DENSITY than Florida.

What's also important is where people are located. In NY people are crowded into New York City. The huge metro area is going to distort any sort of housing costs. By comparison the largest city in Florida is jacksonville, with metro population of less than 2 million.

Similarly the biggest city in California is LA, which is roughly twice the size of Jacksonville.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Personally, I'd be alarmed at a governor acting like an autocrat even if the policies he was pursuing were ones I was in favor of.

 

[shemp]

... if De Santis keeps up this level of incompetence

Last week he signed into law SB 1718, Florida's newest anti-immigrant law. This new law forces any businesses with over 24 employees verify the citizenship of their employees or suffer penalties. Even though the law does not come into effect until July 1, it has already had a devastating effect on many projects. Many of Florida's over 800,000 undocumented immigrants are already simply not turning up to work. Building sites that normally have hundreds of workers, have just a few and progress has ground to a halt - same for road repairs and maintenance. Workers employed by commercial cleaners are not showing up to shopping malls and offices to clean them. Truckers are already boycotting Florida in protest against this law - according to the Pensacola News Journal, several truckers, especially Latinos, have called for a boycott and pledged not to enter the state. If that happens, supermarkets and shops will likely run out of items to put on their shelves because ¾ of interstate truck drivers who bring stuff into Florida are Latinos or immigrants or both. Videos of Florida farms filled with produce but having no workers to harvest them have popped up all over social media.

https://www.vox.com/2023/5/17/23725952/ron-desantis-immigration-law-florida

DeSantis’s office referred Vox to comments the governor made during a press conference this week. “When we have something like an E-Verify, that’s a tool to make sure that longstanding Florida law is enforced,” DeSantis said. “You can’t build a strong economy based on illegality.”

Wrong again, Ron!

 

[W.D.Clinger]

You're right they do. I should have pointed out that New York has a higher population DENSITY than Florida.

Yep: 166 per square kilometer versus 155 for Florida. So the population density averaged over the entire state is pretty similar. Of the 50 states, New York is the 7th most densely populated and Florida is the 8th.

What's also important is where people are located. In NY people are crowded into New York City. The huge metro area is going to distort any sort of housing costs. By comparison the largest city in Florida is jacksonville, with metro population of less than 2 million.

Similarly the biggest city in California is LA, which is roughly twice the size of Jacksonville.

Yep.

ETA: Retirees in New York City who want to live in a warmer climate are more likely to move to Florida than to California, mainly because they want to stay on the east coast and there are already a lot of retired New Yorkers in Florida who speak their language. When California retirees move to Arizona, it has less to do with weather than housing prices. And if you look at how state populations have changed over the past 50 years, there are an awful lot of "red" states whose populations have grown at a slower rate than in western "blue" states (California, Oregon, Washington, New Mexico, modern Colorado, and the increasingly "blue" states of Arizona and Nevada).

 

[JoeMorgue]

Jacksonville is all weird because it really should be "Jacksonville City" and a very large "Duval County" rural area but back in the 60s Jacksonville incorporated all of Duval County into it's city limits. Imagine if LA and Los Angeles County where the same thing.

Jacksonville has huge swaths of rural or even forest land inside the city limits.

I live in Jacksonville and I have to drive almost 45 minutes on I-95 to get to "Jacksonville" the actual city by any real standard.

 

[quadraginta]

If nothing else, De Santis has made his agenda 100% clear: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tamp...is-anti-lgbtq-laws_n_64669016e4b0bfd64480e6e2

The difference between Republicans and the Taliban narrows every day.

...and as far as I can tell, that's just peachy for 40%+ of the US electorate. The GOP is only responding to demand, it's not shaping views IMO.

If that were the case they wouldn't need to make up outrageous lies every time their lips moved.

 

[lobosrul5]

... if De Santis keeps up this level of incompetence

Last week he signed into law SB 1718, Florida's newest anti-immigrant law. This new law forces any businesses with over 24 employees verify the citizenship of their employees or suffer penalties. Even though the law does not come into effect until July 1, it has already had a devastating effect on many projects. Many of Florida's over 800,000 undocumented immigrants are already simply not turning up to work. Building sites that normally have hundreds of workers, have just a few and progress has ground to a halt - same for road repairs and maintenance. Workers employed by commercial cleaners are not showing up to shopping malls and offices to clean them. Truckers are already boycotting Florida in protest against this law - according to the Pensacola News Journal, several truckers, especially Latinos, have called for a boycott and pledged not to enter the state. If that happens, supermarkets and shops will likely run out of items to put on their shelves because ¾ of interstate truck drivers who bring stuff into Florida are Latinos or immigrants or both. Videos of Florida farms filled with produce but having no workers to harvest them have popped up all over social media.

https://www.vox.com/2023/5/17/23725952/ron-desantis-immigration-law-florida


To that you can add the canned Disney project worth US$1billion that would have brought thousands of high-paying jobs to Florida.

https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/article275557111.html

The Magic Kingdom made about $1 billion disappear in Florida on Thursday. Amid an escalating feud with Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, Disney pulled a serious power move. The company canceled a massive office complex set for Orlando, development that was supposed to bring with it more than 2,000 high-paying jobs. Boom. A billion dollars, evaporating into thin air. That’s the price tag now attached to DeSantis’ over-the-top, politically opportunistic war on “woke.” Disney’s decision is a stunning economic — and psychological — blow to the state, and it’s aimed right at the governor. Coming right before next week’s expected announcement that DeSantis is running for president, the company’s public about-face stands to damage him in the eyes of voters who shrink from the idea of a governor openly attacking a business that bucked him.​

He took on Disney because he was butt-hurt that they criticized the poor widdle snowflake. Disney is a multi-billion dollar company. If he keeps trying to fight them, he will lose.

Schrodinger's GOP immigration policy. Do we want cheap goods from cheap labor? HELL YES! Do we want any legal immigrants? HELL NO!

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

I've always heard claims that the hiring of illegal immigrants could be ended if companies were to face penalties for using them, and that the GOP would never do it because they profit too much on illegal labor. Now DeSantis has done it? I think a better path would have been for the workers to get better wages whether illegal or not, but isn't this a start?

 

[shemp]

I guess Ron didn't get the memo on that. I suppose he thinks all those big, burly, beefy guys driving monster trucks with gun racks will take the job openings? Even by the GQP's low standards, the man is an idiot.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again DeSantis is a Republican. The government not working under him is a feature not a bug.

All the stuff he's breaking the businesses and mega-churches are what he and his followers are expected to swoop in a fix and I don't know if them being right or them being wrong is the scarier outcome.

You don't need a government. You just a strong male role mode with a belt and a Bible. That's literally how they think.

 

[Segnosaur]

I've always heard claims that the hiring of illegal immigrants could be ended if companies were to face penalties for using them, and that the GOP would never do it because they profit too much on illegal labor. Now DeSantis has done it? I think a better path would have been for the workers to get better wages whether illegal or not, but isn't this a start?

You are right... Many (especially those on the left) have claimed that the best way to tackle illegal immigration is by going after the people that hire them.

There are 2 issues with that that I can see:

- Not all people on the left think the issue needs to be addressed at all. (They recognize there are issues... labor demand, wages, etc. but nothing that needs to be "fixed"). They only point out the republican failure to go after employers because its an example of republican hypocrisy.

- Even if they do want to address the issue of illegal immigration, just stopping their hiring is only one part of the solution, and should be done with other tactics: Expanded immigration, increased wages, etc. Just going after employers in an attempt to stop them from getting hired (without all the other things I mentioned) is going to cause unnecessary problems.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The fact that everyone pretty much admits in one way or another that our economy is built upon immigrant labor to the point that you can't poke at it too hard for risk of making the whole house of cards fall down has been a loose thread everybody is too scared to pull at in American politics for a long, long time.

 

[bruto]

Personally, I'd be alarmed at a governor acting like an autocrat even if the policies he was pursuing were ones I was in favor of.

This is a thing I keep running into in many arguments here. Everyone is invested in certain ideas, and of course we would like those ideas to prevail, but some things are wrong to do, whether or not the ideas they promote are right to have.

 

[gnome]

You are right... Many (especially those on the left) have claimed that the best way to tackle illegal immigration is by going after the people that hire them.

There are 2 issues with that that I can see:

- Not all people on the left think the issue needs to be addressed at all. (They recognize there are issues... labor demand, wages, etc. but nothing that needs to be "fixed"). They only point out the republican failure to go after employers because its an example of republican hypocrisy.

- Even if they do want to address the issue of illegal immigration, just stopping their hiring is only one part of the solution, and should be done with other tactics: Expanded immigration, increased wages, etc. Just going after employers in an attempt to stop them from getting hired (without all the other things I mentioned) is going to cause unnecessary problems.

We like to address the symptom and ignore the disease.

 

[dirtywick]

You are right... Many (especially those on the left) have claimed that the best way to tackle illegal immigration is by going after the people that hire them.

There are 2 issues with that that I can see:

- Not all people on the left think the issue needs to be addressed at all. (They recognize there are issues... labor demand, wages, etc. but nothing that needs to be "fixed"). They only point out the republican failure to go after employers because its an example of republican hypocrisy.

- Even if they do want to address the issue of illegal immigration, just stopping their hiring is only one part of the solution, and should be done with other tactics: Expanded immigration, increased wages, etc. Just going after employers in an attempt to stop them from getting hired (without all the other things I mentioned) is going to cause unnecessary problems.

i think a lot of what has happened under desantis in the last few years is going to cost the florida economy billions of dollars in the long run. so, it's going to be difficult to see what cracking down on hispanic immigrants in the long run effects the economy will be.

 

[lobosrul5]

i think a lot of what has happened under desantis in the last few years is going to cost the florida economy billions of dollars in the long run. so, it's going to be difficult to see what cracking down on hispanic immigrants in the long run effects the economy will be.

It'll be massively inflationary.

 

[TragicMonkey]

This is a thing I keep running into in many arguments here. Everyone is invested in certain ideas, and of course we would like those ideas to prevail, but some things are wrong to do, whether or not the ideas they promote are right to have.

I'd rather have incompetent morons running a democracy than a wise benevolent sage-king...looks like my wish was granted! But the consolation is that there's yet to be a wise benevolent sage-king, at least one that lasted more than a week before being murdered to death. So...yay? Go Team Human! We, uh, could be worse? Yeah, let's go with that motto.

 

[dudalb]

I'd rather have incompetent morons running a democracy than a wise benevolent sage-king...looks like my wish was granted! But the consolation is that there's yet to be a wise benevolent sage-king, at least one that lasted more than a week before being murdered to death. So...yay? Go Team Human! We, uh, could be worse? Yeah, let's go with that motto.

OK, we have had our dose of cool, hip, nihilistic angst for the week....

 

[lomiller]

And yet, people keep moving to Florida, and away from blue states like California and New York.

Curious.

California and New York are historically the largest donor states, (receive the least federal spending per federal tax dollars collected) while Florida is usually one of the largest recipient states (most total federal spending per tax dollar paid) Would Florida be as "successful" without the subsidies it receives from California and New York? Probably not.

BTW "successful" is in quotes because Florida has the 12th lowest median household income in the US. Florida may be a nice place for rich people to move to, but it ***** at creating wealth or opportunity for the people already living there.

ETA What's astounding is that Kentucky nets even more federal money than Florida in spite of having a fraction the the population. Mich McConnell and Rand Paul like to complain a lot about "redistribution" given their state is one of the largest beneficiary of said "redistribution" on a per capita basis.

 

[lobosrul5]

California and New York are historically the largest donor states, (receive the least federal spending per federal tax dollars collected) while Florida is usually one of the largest recipient states (most total federal spending per tax dollar paid)

Would Florida be as "successful" without the subsidies it receives from California and New York? Probably not.

BTW "successful" is in quotes because Florida has the 12th lowest median household income in the US. Florida may be a nice place for rich people to move to, but it ***** at creating wealth or opportunity for the people already living there.

Might be because about 8% of their labor force is undocumented/illegal. When 8% of your entire labor force has no legal recourse for unsafe work environments, overtime pay, benefits etc, it tends to depress all wages.

Nationwide its about 4.4% of the labor force is thought to be illegal, so Florida is damn near twice the average.