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The DeSantis gambit

Scanned the document and didn’t see the part where is says “Disney gets nothing”. Could you highlight it for me?

I didn't say Disney got nothing. In fact, I specifically and explicitly said that Disney got something important in the very post you quoted. Let me remind you:

Did Disney get anything substantive from this deal? Yes, actually they did, but you [W.D. Clinger] didn't even mention it.

What they got is detailed in point 7 of the settlement agreement.

So let's go over the agreement, shall we?

1) is just incorporation of the background, so neutral.
2) is dismissal of the Disney public records lawsuit against CFTOD. That's a CFTOD win.
3) is withdrawl of the Disney public records request to CFTOD. Also a CFTOD win.
4) is Disney agreeing that the last minute development agreements are void. A huge CFTOD win.
5) is dismissal of state lawsuits. Since CFTOD only sued in order to invalidate the developer agreement, they don't need to sue anymore, so I'll count this as part of the same win as 4 above.
6) is a modification to the current contract with RCES, which will now expire in 2028 instead of 2032. RCES is owned by Disney. I think this is more of a win for CFTOD than for Disney.
7) is the only important Disney win, and they could probably have obtained this through negotiations at the start, without all the lawsuits.
8) is neutral. Disney retains the right to appeal the federal court case, but that case is a loser so retaining the right to appeal isn't really worth anything.
9) is boilerplate legaleze "we won't keep suing each other". Neutral.
10) everybody pays their own lawyers, nobody is on the hook for anyone else's legal fees. Arguably a mild win for Disney since they were losing in court, but they'll end up paying indirectly anyways, since CFTOD's budget comes mostly from taxing Disney.
12) to 15) are just more boilerplate legaleze, all neutral.

So what did I get wrong?
 
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Ziggurat wants someone to tell him what he got wrong.

You are trivially, savagely, wrong about this being a win at all for DeSantis. This isn't even a remotely close call.

What did DeSantis want? He wanted a to target Disney and hurt it for very mild criticism of his hateful (and recently gutted) 'Don't say gay' law. First he tried to make the board go away and, being a typical conservative, didn't realize that would put the Florida taxpayer on the hook for millions.

No. That's what a lot of the press reported, but the press doesn't know what it was talking about. It was never, ever a possibility that the RCID bonds could have possibly become the responsibility to pay by ANYONE other than property holders within the RCID boundaries, which meant primarily Disney.
Ziggurat appears to be unfamiliar with Florida statute 189.076(2).

The Orange County Tax Collector estimated that dissolution of RCID would raise taxes "between $2,200 and $2,800 per family of four."

When that was pointed out to him, he then using a bill of attainder that a Trump judge claimed didn't count as one because 'Disney' wasn't literally written in the bill (It's unlikely an appeals court wouldn't overturn such a finding which ignores normal civil procedure), to replace the board with people he picked to specifically do things to hurt Disney (such as mess with their water).

You have no clue what you're talking about. He didn't replace the board of RCID. He abolished RCID completely, and replaced it with CFTOD. RCID no longer exists. And you can complain all you want to about motives, but RCID was a government entity, not a private entity. The government of Florida can do whatever it want to any government entity it creates.
Florida statute 189.072(2)(a) contradicts the highlighted sentence.

That move, that putting people on the board to do things to hurt Disney, is totally undone by this settlement.

The switch of CFTOD board members isn't part of this settlement, it happened separately. These are really basic facts, how can you be getting it so wrong?
Ziggurat got that right, but doesn't appear to understand how this settlement was made possible by the resignation of CFTOD chair Martin Garcia and the resignation of administrator Glenton Gilzean a week before, leaving CFTOD under the leadership of Vice Chair Charbel Barakat and new administrator Stephanie Kopelousos.

And who gets to appoint the new board members? Ron DeSantis, not Disney. That hasn't changed. Stephanie Kopelousos is being reported as someone more pro-Disney than Gilzean, since she's worked with Disney before, but she's also a former campaign advisor for DeSantis. She's still HIS pick, not Disney's.
Yes, DeSantis picked an administrator who is willing to work with Disney instead of against Disney. That pick was a significant concession to Disney.

And RCID is gone for good, which means nothing has really been undone. You really don't understand the difference between RCID and CFTOD if you think the switch of a few board members represents undoing anything. And again, that switch isn't even part of this settlement.
Garcia and Gilzean were the most rabid opponents of Disney within the CFTOD leadership. Both stepped down, without public explanation, less than two weeks before the settlement was announced.

Does Ziggurat really think the settlement document should have listed their removals (via resignations) as part of the agreement?

What did DeSantis get? He got nothing.

First off, this settlement isn't actually between DeSantis and Disney, it's between Disney and CFTOD....
DeSantis made this settlement possible by recommending Kopelousos and encouraging Garcia and Gilzean to resign.

As the new Orange County Supervisor of Elections, Gilzean's annual salary will be $205,000 instead of the $400,000 he was earning at CFTOD. Gilzean has said he didn't apply for his new position, but agreed to the change when DeSantis called him out of the blue.

Disney can restart the very likely successful appeal to the bill of attainder.

No, they cannot. First off, the federal lawsuit claim wasn't based on the law being a bill of attainder, but on being a first amendment violation. Second, even if they restart the appeal, it doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding.
In its federal lawsuit, Disney "asserted First Amendment, Takings Clause, Due Process, and Contracts Clause counts. Although the doctrine surrounding these clauses is anything but clear-cut, cases interpreting each of these clauses have recognized the relevance of legislative targeting to their analysis."

There's a reason it was dismissed even before trial: Disney has no case.
The reason it was dismissed is that US District Judge Allen Winsor ruled that Disney lacked standing to sue the governor. As Solicitor General of Florida, Winsor "defended Florida's voter-approved ban on same-sex marriages". Winsor was appointed to a Florida court in 2016. In 2018, President Trump nominated Winsor for the federal court vacancy. His nomination escaped from the Senate committee by a vote of 12 to 10, and was confirmed by the full Senate in a vote of 54 to 44. Winsor does not have a strong record of making decisions that hold up when appealed to a higher court.

In his ruling, Winsor alleged that because their texts "do not mention Disney" by name, "no one reading the text of the challenged laws would suppose them directed against Disney."

I have read the text of those laws. Winsor's opinion was a farce. You'd have to be truly stupid not to realize those laws were directed against Disney.
 
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I didn't say Disney got nothing

Sure you did:
What does Disney have to show for all the money they spent on lawyers? Nothing.


In fact, I specifically and explicitly said that Disney got something important in the very post you quoted.

And then you said this:
What does Disney have to show for all the money they spent on lawyers? Nothing.


Let me remind you:



What they got is detailed in point 7 of the settlement agreement.

So let's go over the agreement, shall we?

1) is just incorporation of the background, so neutral.
2) is dismissal of the Disney public records lawsuit against CFTOD. That's a CFTOD win.
3) is withdrawl of the Disney public records request to CFTOD. Also a CFTOD win.
4) is Disney agreeing that the last minute development agreements are void. A huge CFTOD win.
5) is dismissal of state lawsuits. Since CFTOD only sued in order to invalidate the developer agreement, they don't need to sue anymore, so I'll count this as part of the same win as 4 above.
6) is a modification to the current contract with RCES, which will now expire in 2028 instead of 2032. RCES is owned by Disney. I think this is more of a win for CFTOD than for Disney.
7) is the only important Disney win, and they could probably have obtained this through negotiations at the start, without all the lawsuits.
8) is neutral. Disney retains the right to appeal the federal court case, but that case is a loser so retaining the right to appeal isn't really worth anything.
9) is boilerplate legaleze "we won't keep suing each other". Neutral.
10) everybody pays their own lawyers, nobody is on the hook for anyone else's legal fees. Arguably a mild win for Disney since they were losing in court, but they'll end up paying indirectly anyways, since CFTOD's budget comes mostly from taxing Disney.
12) to 15) are just more boilerplate legaleze, all neutral.

So what did I get wrong?

The part where you denied saying Disney got nothing.
 

And subsequently dropped all of its claims except its first amendment claim. That should tell you something about how weak those other claims were, something your source didn't pick up on. But more importantly for the moment, even if they ever did appeal, they could only appeal the first amendment claim, since they dropped all the other claims themselves.

And contrary to the author's suggestion, Disney's suit did no better than Huawei's. It too was dismissed before trial. You keep appealing to people you think are experts, but not a single one of your sources has ever worked in Florida special district law. And that's why they, and you, keep getting it wrong.

The reason it was dismissed is that US District Judge Allen Winsor ruled that Disney lacked standing to sue the governor.

The federal suit was against a lot more than the governor. And the suit was dismissed with respect to all parties.

I have read the text of those laws.

But apparently haven't understood them. What neither you nor your source seem to understand is that those laws did not actually do ANYTHING to Disney itself. Not one single thing. They did something to Reedy Creek Improvement District. RCID is not Disney. It would be illegal for RCID to be Disney. If RCID is Disney, then Disney is legally ******, because that would mean they've engaged in massive securities fraud.

There was never anything Disney could do about the dissolution of RCID, because Disney had no legal interest in RCID. And dissolving RCID did nothing directly to Disney.
 
The reason it was dismissed is that US District Judge Allen Winsor ruled that Disney lacked standing to sue the governor.

The federal suit was against a lot more than the governor. And the suit was dismissed with respect to all parties.


Please accept my apology for failing to note explicitly that the suit was filed against not only the governor, but also against Meredith Ivey (Acting Secretary of the Florida Department of Economic Opportunity), CFTOD board members Martin Garcia, Michael Sasso, Brian Aungst Jr, Ron Peri, and Bridget Ziegler, and John Classes (Administrator of CFTOD).

I have read the text of those laws.

But apparently haven't understood them.
I understood the text of those laws well enough to know they were directed against Disney. Which is more than can be said for Judge Winsor.

As I wrote on 4 August 2023:
W.D.Clinger said:
The court went on to say "no one reading the text of the challenged laws would suppose them directed against Disney. The laws do not mention Disney."

The court cited two relevant laws that do not explicitly mention Disney: Florida SB 4-C and Florida HB 9-B.

Here is how Florida SB 4-C does not mention Disney:
(2) Notwithstanding s. 189.072(2), any independent special district established by a special act prior to the date of ratification of the Florida Constitution on November 5, 1968, and which was not reestablished, re-ratified, or otherwise reconstituted by a special act or general law after November 5, 1968, is dissolved effective June 1, 2023. An independent special district affected by this subsection may be reestablished on or after June 1, 2023, pursuant to the requirements and limitations of this chapter.


And the 191 pages of Florida HB 9-B avoid mentioning Disney by saying things like
Section 1. Chapter 67-764, Laws of Florida, relating to the Reedy Creek Improvement District, and the decree in chancery No. 66-1061 entered by the Circuit Court in and for the Ninth Judicial Circuit of the State of Florida on May 13, 1966, creating and incorporating the Reedy Creek Drainage District as a public corporation of the State of Florida, are reenacted, amended, and repealed as provided herein.
and
The Central Florida Tourism Oversight District shall include all of the lands within the following described boundaries:

(1) In Orange County, Florida:
A parcel of land lying in Sections 1 through 3, 8 through 17, 19 through 28, 33 through 36 Township 24 South, Range 27 East, and Sections 6 through 8, 17 through 22, 27 through 31, Township 24 South, Range 28 East, Orange County, Florida, and being more particularly described as follows:

...snipped 79 pages of similarly detailed geographical prose that describe Disney's property without explicitly mentioning Disney...
By the way, that geographical prose apparently did not appear within the Florida laws that were repealed and/or amended by Florida HB 9-B.


ETA: Also by the way, that "Notwithstanding s. 189.072(2)" in Florida HB 9-B was necessary because Florida Statute 189.072(2) says the legislature can't do what it did by passing Florida HB 9-B. In effect, Florida HB 9-B repealed Florida Statute 189.072(2) with respect to the RCID and only with respect to the RCID.

ETA2: Anticipating further discussion:
  • Florida House Bill 486 of 1967, chapter 67-764, establishing the Reedy Creek Improvement District (RCID).
  • Florida HB 9-B, which renamed the Reed Creek Improvement District as the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District. (See lines 51 through 56.)
 
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I understood the text of those laws well enough to know they were directed against Disney. Which is more than can be said for Judge Winsor.

You keep confusing RCID for Disney. As I said, the law does nothing to Disney. Not one single thing. RCID is not Disney.
 
There was never anything Disney could do about the dissolution of RCID, because Disney had no legal interest in RCID. And dissolving RCID did nothing directly to Disney.


So long as we're splitting hairs, HB 9-B did not dissolve RCID. It renamed RCID to CFTOD:
HB 9-B said:
The Reedy Creek Improvement District shall continue to be a public corporation of this state and have perpetual existence, but upon the effective date of this act, the Reedy Creek Improvement District shall be renamed the "Central Florida Tourism Oversight District."
Ziggurat's confusion concerning this point is understandable because one of the Florida government's own web pages summarizes HB 9-B underneath a title that says "DISSOLVING THE CORPORATE KINGDOM".

Which is kinda interesting, because it would seem to indicate the Florida government itself conflated the old RCID with Disney. Unless of course the Florida government is referring to RCID as "THE CORPORATE KINGDOM", in which case the Florida government is also confusing the renaming of RCID with a dissolution of RCID.

More importantly, both that web page and the governor's own web page touting his signing of HB 9-B say the legislation "ENSURES that Disney’s municipal debt will be paid by Disney, not Florida taxpayers." That bullet point recognizes the fact that, without HB 9-B, Florida taxpayers would have been on the hook for Disney's municipal debt, contrary to Ziggurat's misunderstanding.
 
And yet, you still can't point to anything that the law does to Disney. Because it didn't to anything to Disney. Descriptions of the law which are not actually part of the law do not determine what the law does. Hell, even the title of a law within the law doesn't determine what the law does.
 
And yet, you still can't point to anything that the law does to Disney. Because it didn't to anything to Disney. Descriptions of the law which are not actually part of the law do not determine what the law does. Hell, even the title of a law within the law doesn't determine what the law does.
But this thread is about Ron DeSantis. I would never pretend Ron DeSantis's description of the law is an accurate description of the law.

It is a fact that the title of DeSantis's own web page says, and I quote:
Governor Ron DeSantis Signs Legislation Ending the Corporate Kingdom of Walt Disney World
It is therefore evident that Ron DeSantis and his PR flacks wanted the world to believe HB 9-B ended "the Corporate Kingdom of Walt Disney World".

So we know Ron DeSantis was promoting the conflation of RCID and Disney of which Ziggurat is complaining.

Which gets us back to the real purpose of DeSantis's feud with Disney. And it worked.

Ron DeSantis really did become President the Republican nominee guy who got to stand onstage between Mike Pence and Vivek Ramaswamy.
 
To me, as an outsider, it sounds more like Ron was told by Disney: "This is what you need to do - remove your horrible person A and your useless person B, and replace them with these actually competent persons C and D who we can work with, and in return we won't sue your ass into oblivion, loser. Instead, this all goes away and you can look good. Ok? Got it? Good. Sign here."

"And by the way, don't forget we are the biggest single employer in your state".
 
So we know Ron DeSantis was promoting the conflation of RCID and Disney of which Ziggurat is complaining.

Disney and RCID were separate legally. In practice they were not, because Disney was acting illegally to control RCID, and may still face criminal liability for some of that. And in that sense, yes, DeSantis did end Disney's control over RCID. I don't have a problem with that conflation in a non-legal context. But it's a mistake to carry that over into a legal context.

And Disney cannot contest that legal separation. The last thing Disney wants is for the courts to conclude that RCID was part of Disney or controlled by Disney (even though they were). Because if the courts ever reach that conclusion, then Disney is on the hook for billions of dollars in securities fraud.
 
A lot of this has already been taken apart by other posters, but I'm going to pick too because this load of cope is too stinky to leave lying around.

You have no clue what you're talking about. He didn't replace the board of RCID. He abolished RCID completely, and replaced it with CFTOD. RCID no longer exists. And you can complain all you want to about motives,

'If you leave out that it was unambiguously a use of power to punish a company for not going along silently with a stupid law, they did have the power to do that' isn't a mitigating argument. It's just not. Not going to leave the motivation aside not only because that would be craven but it would be stupid too as it is what DeSantis wanted to win. When trying to argue it was a win for him you can't ignore what original goals.

but RCID was a government entity, not a private entity. The government of Florida can do whatever it want to any government entity it creates. It isn't just that the law doesn't name Disney, it's that the law doesn't actually do ANYTHING to Disney. It did something to RCID. And RCID is legally completely independent of Disney. RCID is a government entity, not the property of Disney. Disney had no property rights to RCID. Their only claim to property rights was the developer agreement, which was invalid for both substantive and procedural reasons, but with the settlement even Disney agrees that it's dead.

This is meaningless. The distinctions you're trying to make are legal fictions, not logical ones. The board changing names doesn't mean it was fundamentally different in ostensive function. What were they set up to do? Manage the services for Disney's huge properties. Both were given those powers.



The switch of CFTOD board members isn't part of this settlement, it happened separately. These are really basic facts, how can you be getting it so wrong?

The polite fiction that just because these changes were not written in the official settlement is not worth entertaining as a valid argument in regards to what was in the deal. You want to pretend that if the documents don't say it, it 'doesn't count' which doesn't make any more sense than pretending DeSantis didn't do what he did to punish Disney (even though he obviously did), or that the Muslim Ban wasn't that (even though Trump said it was that and it was that) or that Intelligent Design isn't the same as creationism.

The 'rules lawyering' you're doing is laughable and contemptible. It's so intellectually dishonest to expect others to play along with the idea that the only things that count are those explicitly stated in courts. Who says you get to set those standards? And will you stick with them? Let's see...

And who gets to appoint the new board members?

...nope. You won't. DeSantis isn't named. It's the office of the governor of Florida, right? 'How can you get such basic facts wrong.'

Ron DeSantis, not Disney. That hasn't changed. Stephanie Kopelousos is being reported as someone more pro-Disney than Gilzean, since she's worked with Disney before, but she's also a former campaign advisor for DeSantis. She's still HIS pick, not Disney's.

She's also now required to do the things Disney wanted the board to do in the first place.

And RCID is gone for good, which means nothing has really been undone. You really don't understand the difference between RCID and CFTOD if you think the switch of a few board members represents undoing anything. And again, that switch isn't even part of this settlement.

Pure cope. The board's actions have all been undone. You can claim the rename is meaningful but it just isn't. The messing with the permits and water rights is gone and the new board, no matter who is on it, can't mess with them again.

7. Mitigation Credits. As a material inducement to Disney in entering into the Agreement, the District acknowledges Disney is the owner of, and the District shall not prohibit or impede, but rather assist in the use of, Long-Term Permit Mitigation Credits or other entitlements created through:

a) South Florida Water Management District Environmental Resource Permits Nos. 48-00714-S, 48-00714-P, and/or and 48-00714-8-22, as amended;
b) Department of the Army Permit 199101901 (IP-GS) and/or SA3-1991-01901 (SP-TSD), as amended;
c) State of Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission Permits Nos. OSC-4, OSC-SSC-1, and/or OSC-TSR-1, as amended.



First off, this settlement isn't actually between DeSantis and Disney, it's between Disney and CFTOD.

Symantec wankery is about the level I expected but this is tedious even for you.

And CFTOD got what it wanted: the last-minute developer agreement between Disney and RCID is permanently gone. Which it would have been anyways, but now they don't have to go through a trial to get it. If you don't know why getting rid of that developer agreement was important, then you don't understand why Disney pushed it through at the last minute, and why CFTOD wanted it nullified. As I said before, Disney did get something important out of this deal, but you never even mentioned it, because you don't understand anything.

It literally doesn't matter if RCID is gone because the new board has to do what Disney wanted the RCID to do anyway. But hey, now the new board has a new name and Florida technically picks who is on it, even though if they don't do what Disney wanted them to do in the first place Florida has violated the settlement.

You want to pretend these things aren't what have happened because you wish it was a win for DeSantis. The only way to cope is to pretend others 'just don't get it'.

What did Disney want the board (whichever name you claim is important) to do? Does this agreement force the board (name it Goofy for all it matters) to do that? It does because Disney won.



The state lawsuits are ended permanently.


lol



No, they cannot. First off, the federal lawsuit claim wasn't based on the law being a bill of attainder, but on being a first amendment violation.

And? What do you think you're saying here? What does it matter? It doesn't and you aren't saying anything of value.

Second, even if they restart the appeal, it doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding. There's a reason it was dismissed even before trial: Disney has no case.

It was dismissed because the Trump judge wrote utter drivel that would be overturned. If the appeal was weak, Disney would have been happy to give it up in the settlement. They didn't so they still have a weapon if DeSantis breaks it.



RCID is gone, CFTOD is here to stay. I'm not sure if that's punishment given that RCID should have been abolished decades ago, but Disney lost a hell of a lot when they lost RCID. They weren't entitled to it in the first place, which is why they can't win their federal suit, but they still lost it.



No, they do not have control of the board.



What attacks do you imagine there were? CFTOD got rid of the last-minute developer agreement. They got rid of the illegal park passes to employees (now the employees get a stipend which they can use to buy passes if they want, but aren't required to). The contract with Reedy Creek Energy Services is going to expire in 2028 instead of 2032. Do you understand anything about the situation? Anything at all?



Yeah, you really don't understand anything about RCID and CFTOD. This isn't an L for me, you just beclowned yourself.

Blahblahblah, Disney got what it wanted and DeSantis didn't. It's an L, no matter if you want to admit it or not. You were wrong and remain wrong. Disney isn't going to have to deal with threats to its operations and the law that sparked this is being cut apart. Get better politics.
 
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireS...ents-protecting-workers-heat-limits-109177840

nion dion desantis signs law banning civilian review boards for police misconduct and prevents local governments from requiring heat and water breaks for outdoor workers

too bad he can’t do it federally

From your link:
In a bill DeSantis signed Thursday, Florida, one of the hottest states in the country, local governments will be banned from requiring heat and water breaks for outdoor workers.

It was a direct response to Miami-Dade County’s effort to require shade and water for construction, farm and other outdoor workers.

Well, not having shade and water didn't do the slaves in the cotton and tobacco fields any harm!:rolleyes:

Asked about the bill Friday, DeSantis said it was an issue raised by Miami-Dade County lawmakers.

“It really wasn’t anything that was coming from me. There was a lot of concern out of one county — Miami-Dade,” DeSantis said. “They were pursuing what was going to cause a lot of problems down there.”

But the law will now keep Florida’s 66 other counties from requiring similar worker protections.

But he signed it into law. What a chicken****.
 
Stacyhs said:
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireS...ents-protecting-workers-heat-limits-109177840

nion dion desantis signs law banning civilian review boards for police misconduct and prevents local governments from requiring heat and water breaks for outdoor workers

too bad he can’t do it federally

From your link:
In a bill DeSantis signed Thursday, Florida, one of the hottest states in the country, local governments will be banned from requiring heat and water breaks for outdoor workers.

It was a direct response to Miami-Dade County’s effort to require shade and water for construction, farm and other outdoor workers.

Well, not having shade and water didn't do the slaves in the cotton and tobacco fields any harm!:rolleyes:

Asked about the bill Friday, DeSantis said it was an issue raised by Miami-Dade County lawmakers.

“It really wasn’t anything that was coming from me. There was a lot of concern out of one county — Miami-Dade,” DeSantis said. “They were pursuing what was going to cause a lot of problems down there.

But the law will now keep Florida’s 66 other counties from requiring similar worker protections.

But he signed it into law. What a chicken****.
Who is this "they" you speak of, ****-head?
 
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