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The Deluge

Why again did Enki tell Ziusudra (or the wall) about the coming flood ordained by An and Enlil?
 
Come on, DH answer my question, refrain from cut and paste from your online bible course.
 
kedo1981 said:
In Gen. 6 God decides that the living beings on Earth should be destroyed.
After which he tells Noah that he and his family would be saved and tells him to build the ark.
OK
Building the ark with bronze age tools would have taken decades if not a lifetime.
Click to expand...

Let me stop you right there and just say this. No one knows for sure how long it took Noah to build the ark, but likely it was decades.

At Genesis 6:3 God gave a timeline for the destruction of man, 120 years till the flood. 20 years after that Noah's first son, Japheth was born. Then Shem two years later. It is uncertian when Ham was born but the three sons were grown and married when the instructions for the ark were given to Noah. This means that there were about 40 or 50 years until the flood. (Genesis 5:32; 6:13-18)

kedo1981 said:
So how is it that God already had determined that all the unborn children and all the future people that would have come into being, would also choose to be evil?
How many children were still in utero when the flood happened, how did god know they were going to be evil?
How many 5-year-old girls were alive when the flood happened, how did god know they were going to be evil?
Click to expand...

Well, in addition to building the ark Noah was trying to get anyone who would come to come along and they would have nothing to do with it.
 
paximperium said:
So did you nuke Megaton or save it?
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Saved it. My first playthrough, I'm going for maxed-out Good Karma for the Messiah (or whatever it's called) achievement. In later playthroughs I'll go Neutral and Evil.

ETA: Also, getting to Tenpenny Tower is kind of a pain in the *** at that level.
 
Pure_Argent said:
Saved it. My first playthrough, I'm going for maxed-out Good Karma for the Messiah (or whatever it's called) achievement. In later playthroughs I'll go Neutral and Evil.

ETA: Also, getting to Tenpenny Tower is kind of a pain in the *** at that level.
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I tried playing evil until it came to enslaving people...even I had a hard time doing that. Great game.
 
paximperium said:
I tried playing evil until it came to enslaving people...even I had a hard time doing that. Great game.
Click to expand...

Yeah. You can tell that it's really well-done when you actually care about the moral choices you have to make. On that note, did you play The Pitt?
 
David Henson said:
Excellent point.

The Bible uses the term "kinds" of animals, which differs from the biological term "species." The biological "kind" or "species" consists of any group of interfertile animals or plansts mutually possessing one or more distinctive characteristics. So there can be many such species of varieties within a single division of the Biblical "kinds."

<there's more>
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Mental gymnastics attempting to maintain belief in a doomed mythology. It's a myth. Figure it out. The greek gods were myths, the Mayan gods were myths, the god of Islam is a myth, the god of Christianity is a myth. It's very simple.
 
David Henson said:
Let me stop you right there and just say this. No one knows for sure how long it took Noah to build the ark, but likely it was decades.
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Oasis of the Sea, the largest cruise liner in the word at about 360meters was build using modern equipment. It took 8000man-years of work to complete.

I find the sight of the crazy-man Noah with his hammer attempting to build something even one tenth the size exceedingly funny.
 
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David Henson said:
For no apparent reason other than I happen to be in the mood here is some Bible chronology I posted some time ago on another forum which actually could be useful in this thread. Might as well do it here . . .

4026, Adam created

3404, Enoch born

3096, Adam dies

2970, Noah born

2470, Japheth born

2468, Shem born

2370, Flood begins

2369, post-Flood history begins

1943, Abraham crosses Euphrates

1932, Ishmael born

1919, covenant of circumcision made with Abraham

1918, Isaac born

1913, Isaac weaned

1893, Abraham attempts to sacrifice Isaac

1881, Sarah dies

1878, Isaac weds Rebekah

1858, Esau and Jacob born

1843, Abraham dies

1795, Ishmael dies

1781, Jacob flees to Mesopotamia

1774, Jacob weds Leah and Rachel

1761, Jacob returns to Canaan

1750, Joseph sold into slavery

1738, Isaac dies

1728, Jacob moves to Egypt

1711, Jacob dies

1657, Joseph dies

c. 1613, Job tried

1513, Exodus from Egypt / Genesis written

1512, Aaronic priesthood installed / Exodus, Leviticus written / tabernacle completed

c. 1473, Job written

1473, Numbers, Deuteronomy written / Moses dies / Israelites enter Promised Land / spies enter Jericho / Jericho falls

c. 1467, conquest of Canaan completed

c. 1450, Joshua written

1424, first Jubilee celebrated

1173, Jephthah becomes judge

1117, Saul begins reign

c. 1100, Judges written

c. 1090, Ruth written

c. 1078, 1 Samuel written

1077, David becomes king of Judah at Hebron / Ish-bosheth becomes king of Israel

1075, Ish-bosheth assassinated

1070, David becomes king over all Israel

(Sometime after 1070), David brings ark of the covenant to Jerusalem

c. 1040, 2 Samuel written

1037, Solomon begins reign

1034, Solomon begins temple

1027, Solomon completes temple

1026, Solomon dedicates temple

c. 1020, Song of Solomon written

(Sometime before 1000) Ecclesiastes written

 998, Solomon dies

 997, Rehoboam becomes king / Israel divided into two kingdoms / Jeroboam becomes king of Israel

 993, Pharaoh Shishak invades Judah

 980, Abijah (Abijam) becomes king of Judah

 978, Asa becomes king of Judah

 977, Asa's first regnal year

c. 976, Nadab becomes king of Israel

c. 975, Baasha becomes king of Israel

 967, Asa defeats Ethiopians

 962, "thirty-sixth year" of Asa's reign

c. 952, Elah becomes king of Israel

c. 951, Zimri becomes king of Israel for seven days / Omri becomes king of Israel

c. 940, Ahab becomes king of Israel

 936, Jehoshaphat becomes king of Judah

c. 920, Ahab dies

c. 919, Ahaziah (son of Ahab) becomes king of Israel

c. 917, Jehoram (son of Ahab) becomes king of Israel

 913, Jehoram (son of Jehoshaphat) reigns with father

 911, Jehoshaphat dies

c. 906, Ahaziah (grandson of Jehoshaphat) becomes king of Judah

c. 905, Jehu anointed as king of Israel / Jehoram (son of Ahab) killed by Jehu / Ahaziah (grandson of Jehoshaphat) killed by Jehu / Athaliah usurps throne of Judah

c. 904, Jehu's first year as king of Israel

 898, Jehoash (son of Ahaziah) becomes king of Judah

c. 877, Jehu dies

 876, Jehoahaz becomes king of Israel

 860, Jehoahaz dies

c. 859, Jehoash (son of Jehoahaz) becomes king of Israel

 859, Jehoash (son of Ahaziah) assassinated

 858, Amaziah becomes king of Judah

c. 844, Jeroboam II becomes king of Israel / Jonah written

 829, Uzziah becomes king of Judah

c. 820, Joel written

c. 818, Uzziah (Azariah) 'becomes king'

c. 804, Amos written / Hosea begins prophesying / Jeroboam II begins last regnal year

c. 803, Jeroboam II dies

c. 792, Zechariah becomes king of Israel

 791, Shallum becomes king of Israel for one month

c. 790, Menahem's first regnal year as king of Israel

c. 780, Pekahiah becomes king of Israel

c. 778, Isaiah begins prophesying / Pekah becomes king of Israel

 777, Jotham becomes king of Judah / Micah begins prophesying

 762, Ahaz becomes king of Judah

c. 758, Hoshea becomes king of Israel

 753, Rome founded (tradition)

 746, Ahaz dies

 745, Hezekiah's first regnal year as king of Judah

(sometime after 745) Hosea written

 742, Samaria besieged

 740, ten-tribe kingdom of Israel falls

 732, Sennacherib attacks Judah

(sometime after 732) Isaiah stops prophesying / Isaiah written

(sometime before 717) Micah written

c. 717, Proverbs compiled

 717, Hezekiah dies

 716, Manasseh becomes king of Judah

 661, Amon becomes king of Judah

 659, Josiah becomes king of Judah

(sometime before 648) Zephaniah written

 647, Jeremiah commissioned

 645, Nabopolassar becomes king of Babylon

(sometime before 632) Nahum written

 632, Nineveh falls

 629, Josiah killed in battle / Pharaoh Necho(h) takes Carchemish / reestablishment of Assyrian Empire fails

c. 628, Habakkuk written

 628, Jehoahaz becomes king of Judah / Jehoiakim becomes king of Judah

 625, battle of Carchemish / Jeremiah has Baruch write prophecies

 624, Baruch reads scroll in temple courtyard / Nebuchadnezzar becomes king of Babylon

 620, Jehoiakim vassal to Nebuchadnezzar

 618, Nebuchadnezzar besieges Jerusalem / Jehoiakim dies

 618-617, Jehoiachin rules, is exiled

 617, Zedekiah becomes king of Judah / first exiles from Jerusalem

 614, Zedekiah and Seraiah to Babylon

 613, Ezekiel commissioned

 612, Ezekiel's vision of false worship in temple

 611, Ezekiel confirms Jerusalem to fall

 609, final siege of Jerusalem begins

 607, Jerusalem falls / Jerusalem destroyed / temple burned / Lamentations written / last exiles from Jerusalem

c. 607, Obadiah written

(sometime after 607) Nebuchadnezzar takes Tyre

c. 606, Nebuchadnezzar's dream of image

 602, Nebuchadnezzar exiles more Jews, conquers Moab and Ammon, and invades Egypt

 593, Ezekiel's vision of future temple

c. 591, Ezekiel written

 580, 1 and 2 Kings written / Jeremiah written

 560, Cyrus the Great becomes king of Persia

 556, Nabonidus becomes king of Babylon

 553, Belshazzar coregent with Nabonidus / Daniel receives vision

 551, Daniel receives vision

 550, Cyrus unites Medes and Persians

 540, Meroë becomes capital of Ethiopia

 539, Cyrus takes Babylon, becomes its king / Daniel receives prophecy of 70 weeks

 538-537, Cyrus decrees release of Jews

 537, Jews repatriated, altar erected

 536, Daniel receives prophecy of kings of north and south / temple foundation laid

c. 536, Daniel written

 530, Cyrus the Great dies

 529, Cambyses II begins rule

 525, Cambyses II subjugates Egypt

 522, Cambyses II dies / Smerdis (Bardiya or Gaumata) usurps Persian throne / ban on temple construction / Darius I (Hystaspis) ascends throne / Darius I (Hystaspis) defeats Nebuchadnezzar III

 521-520, Darius I's first regnal year as king of Babylon

 520, Haggai and Zechariah prophesy / temple building resumed / Haggai written

 518, Zechariah written

 515, temple completed

 496, Xerxes I coregent with father Darius I (Hystaspis)

 490, battle of Marathon, Greece

 486, Darius I (Hystaspis) dies

 484, Ahasuerus (Xerxes I) decrees extermination of Jews

 480, Xerxes I invades Greece / battle at Thermopylae

479, Greeks defeat Persians at Plataea

c. 475, Esther written

 475, Artaxerxes Longimanus ascends throne

 474-473, Artaxerxes Longimanus' first regnal year

 468, Ezra travels to Jerusalem

c. 460, 1 and 2 Chronicles written / Ezra written / Psalms completed

 455, Artaxerxes Longimanus issues command to rebuild Jerusalem and walls / Jerusalem's walls completed

c. 443, Nehemiah returns to Persia

(sometime after 443) Malachi written / Nehemiah written

 424, Artaxerxes Longimanus' reign ends

 423-422, Darius II's first regnal year

 404, Artaxerxes II (Mnemon) becomes king

 358, Artaxerxes III (Ochus) becomes king

 336, Alexander the Great ascends throne

 334, Alexander invades Persia / Alexander defeats Persians at Granicus

 333, Alexander defeats Persians at Issus

 332, Alexander overthrows Tyre / Alexander enters Jerusalem / Alexander conquers Egypt

 331, Alexander defeats Persians at Gaugamela / Persian Empire falls / Alexander enters Babylon

 323, Alexander the Great dies

 301, Alexander's generals in power

 168, Jerusalem's temple desecrated

 167, Maccabean revolt begins / Macedonia conquered by Rome

 165, Jerusalem's temple rededicated

 150, Septuagint completed

 146, Macedonia a Roman province

  63, Jerusalem falls to Rome

  46, Julius Caesar begins rule

  44, Julius Caesar assassinated

  42, victory of Octavius and Mark Antony on Plain of Philippi

c. 39, Herod the Great becomes king of Judaea

  31, Octavius begins rule / Octavius defeats Mark Antony

  30, Octavius conquers Egypt / Rome a world power

  27, Octavius becomes emperor, proclaimed "Augustus"

c. 17, Herod begins to rebuild temple

   3, Gabriel foretells birth of John the Baptizer

   2, Jesus born

   1, Herod the Great dies




C.E.



  14, Tiberius becomes emperor

  28-29, Tiberius' fifteenth year

  29, spring, John the Baptizer begins ministry / fall, Jesus baptized, becomes Christ (Messiah)

  30, Jesus cleanses temple

  31, Jesus gives Sermon on Mount

  32, Jesus attends Festival of Booths / John the Baptizer beheaded

  33, Nisan 7, Jesus travels from Jericho to Bethany / Nisan 8, Jesus arrives in Bethany / Nisan 9, meal at home of Simon; entry into Jerusalem / Nisan 10, Jesus cleanses temple, teaches; Jehovah speaks / Nisan 11, Jesus' ministry in and around Jerusalem / Nisan 12, Jesus in retirement; Judas offers to betray / Nisan 13, Passover preparations / Nisan 15, Pilate permits guards for Jesus' grave / Nisan 16, Jesus resurrected / Sivan 6, Christian congregation founded

c. 34, Saul of Tarsus converted

c. 36, Paul first visits Jerusalem as Christian / Paul taken to Caesarea, sent to Tarsus

  36, Cornelius converted

  37, Caligula (Gaius Caesar) becomes emperor

c. 41, Matthew written / Paul's vision

  41, Caligula assassinated / Claudius becomes emperor / Herod Agrippa I becomes king of all Palestine

  43, Claudius begins conquest of southern Britain

c. 44, Agabus prophesies famine / James (son of Zebedee) martyred / Peter imprisoned, miraculously released

  44, Herod Agrippa I dies

c. 46, foretold famine strikes; Paul brings relief to Jerusalem

c. 47-48, Paul's first missionary tour

c. 47, Paul, Barnabas, and John Mark visit Salamis

c. 49, circumcision issue at Antioch / conference in Jerusalem / territory assignments / Paul begins second missionary tour

c. 49-52, Paul's second missionary tour

c. 49-50, Claudius expels Jews from Rome

c. 50, Luke joins Paul at Troas / Paul's vision of Macedonian man / Paul visits Philippi / Philippian congregation founded / Thessalonian congregation founded / Thessalonians written

c. 50-52, Paul visits Corinth / Galatians written

c. 51, 2 Thessalonians written

c. 52-56, Paul's third missionary tour

c. 52-55, Paul visits Ephesus

  54, Nero begins rule

c. 55, 1 Corinthians written / Titus sent to Corinth / 2 Corinthians written

c. 56, Romans written / Paul resurrects Eutychus in Troas / Paul and Luke stay with Philip in Caesarea / Paul arrested in Jerusalem

c. 56-58, Paul in custody in Caesarea / Luke written

c. 58, Festus succeeds Felix

  58, Herod Agrippa II hears Paul

c. 59, Paul stops at Syracuse

c. 59-61, Paul's first imprisonment in Rome

c. 60-61, Colossians written / Ephesians written / Philemon written / Philippians written

c. 60-65, Mark written

c. 61, Acts written / Hebrews written

c. 61-64, 1 Timothy written / Titus left in Crete / Titus written

(sometime before 62) James written

c. 62, James (brother of Jesus) dies

c. 62-64, 1 Peter written

c. 64, 2 Peter written

  64, Rome burns

c. 65, Paul's second imprisonment in Rome and death / 2 Timothy written / Titus leaves for Dalmatia / Jude written

  66, Jews seize Masada / Jews revolt against Rome / Cestius Gallus attacks Jerusalem, withdraws

  67, Vespasian begins to quell Jewish uprising

  68, Galba becomes emperor

  69, Otho becomes emperor / Vitellius becomes emperor / Vespasian becomes emperor / Titus continues campaign against Jews

  70, Jerusalem destroyed by Romans / temple burned

  73, Masada falls

  79, Titus becomes emperor

  81, Domitian becomes emperor

  96, Nerva becomes emperor / Revelation written

  96-98, John released from exile

c. 98, John written / 1 John written / 2 John written / 3 John written

  98, Trajan becomes emperor

c. 100, John dies

 100, Herod Agrippa II dies

 122, Hadrian begins wall in Britain

 130, Hadrian rebuilds Jerusalem

 132, Jews revolt under Bar Kokhba

 200, Symmachus translates Hebrew Scriptures

c. 245, Origen completes Hexapla

 286, Diocletian begins rule

 303, Diocletian decrees that Christian meeting places be razed and Scriptures burned

 306, Constantine the Great becomes emperor

 321, Constantine decrees Sunday a day of rest

 325, Council of Nicaea
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Most of this chronology is nonsense. Might I ask, how can the gospel of Mark (author unknown) have been written after the gospels of Matthew and Luke (authors unknown) when the latter two both quote passages of the first?
 
Ladewig said:
So when modern biologists say that 10 reptile kinds cannot turn into the 8000 reptile species in 6000 years, what is your response?
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I ask you for a reference.

ETA: follow up question - were dinosaurs one of those 10 reptile kinds?[/QUOTE]

Hmm . . . interesting. You see, I've never had any real interest in science. So perhaps someone here could honestly evaluate my definition of Bible kinds given earlier in this thread and compare those with the biological definition of species and see if that is theoretically possible. I doubt it though. I've always thought it would be interesting to try. When I first started on line debate C.A.R.M. [shudders] was just starting out and was this little Matt Wright message board and there was this Christian woman on there who did have an interest and working knowledge of science. Always arguing with the armchair evolutionist. I couldn't be bothered, but I remember her giving evidence that hotly contested that there had been discoveries of human footprints in dinosaur footprints.

Now, if, as I suspect, there is good reason to doubt this, that science clings to the idea of there being no dinosaurs when humans were about then the answer would be no.

I have no idea. I don't see why it would matter except that scientists get as bent out of shape when their theories are questioned as we theologist get bent out of shape when you question our theology. Silly if you ask me, but thats the way it is.

Now. What about the behemoth mentioned at Job 40:15? Isn't that an interesting creature. I can't recall what the KJV calls it but knowing the KJV it is likely to be far more interesting that the traditional Hippopotamus amphibius, eh? The KJV is full of odd translations, even a unicorn where I think a ox should appear.

Now . . . the behemoth is variously translated as either a derivative of an Egyptian word meaning "water ox," or an Assyrian word meaning "monster" and from a Hebrew word, behemah meaning great beast or huge beast.

Usually translated the hippopotamus I don't see how a hippo could, like at Job 40:17, have a tail like a ceddar?
 
I’m sorry DH am I looking in the wrong bible, the KJB right.
Where does it say Noah evangelized, because God told him that only him and his family would be on the ark, are you saying Noah thought that he could save other people, despite what God told him?
Where do you get the 120 year number, but even so how many children were in utero when the flood happened, since you are apparently using non biblical sources from some of your beliefs (if I’m incorrect point out the verse) can you speculate why God did’nt just stop people from having children for a few generations, thus sparing all those 3 year olds the terror that must have been the last minutes of their lives?
 
The whole story of Job is a citation of sadism to the extreme.
It can only be fiction, as even that monster god could see that, and hardly pass that tale on to some idiot scribe to write down.
Flights of fantasy such as behemoth then are merely additions to make that disgusting story a ripping good yarn, at best.
 
I Ratant said:
The whole story of Job is a citation of sadism to the extreme.
It can only be fiction, as even that monster god could see that, and hardly pass that tale on to some idiot scribe to write down.
Flights of fantasy such as behemoth then are merely additions to make that disgusting story a ripping good yarn, at best.
Click to expand...

I liked Heinlein's version better.
 
David Henson said:
Hmm . . . interesting. You see, I've never had any real interest in science. So perhaps someone here could honestly evaluate my definition of Bible kinds given earlier in this thread and compare those with the biological definition of species and see if that is theoretically possible. I doubt it though. I've always thought it would be interesting to try. When I first started on line debate C.A.R.M. [shudders] was just starting out and was this little Matt Wright message board and there was this Christian woman on there who did have an interest and working knowledge of science. Always arguing with the armchair evolutionist. I couldn't be bothered, but I remember her giving evidence that hotly contested that there had been discoveries of human footprints in dinosaur footprints.

Now, if, as I suspect, there is good reason to doubt this, that science clings to the idea of there being no dinosaurs when humans were about then the answer would be no.

I have no idea. I don't see why it would matter except that scientists get as bent out of shape when their theories are questioned as we theologist get bent out of shape when you question our theology. Silly if you ask me, but thats the way it is.

Now. What about the behemoth mentioned at Job 40:15? Isn't that an interesting creature. I can't recall what the KJV calls it but knowing the KJV it is likely to be far more interesting that the traditional Hippopotamus amphibius, eh? The KJV is full of odd translations, even a unicorn where I think a ox should appear.

Now . . . the behemoth is variously translated as either a derivative of an Egyptian word meaning "water ox," or an Assyrian word meaning "monster" and from a Hebrew word, behemah meaning great beast or huge beast.

Usually translated the hippopotamus I don't see how a hippo could, like at Job 40:17, have a tail like a ceddar?
Click to expand...

Why don't you spend some time studying the science behind this stuff before posting here? For example for scientific dating I highly recommend the clocks chapter in Dawkins "Greatest Show On Earth". Once you've read that chapter and understand it you can then poke holes in it.

As someone who describes themselves as scientifically illiterate how can you expect to engage in these types of conversations at all?
 
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David Henson said:
Of the species of animals over 60 percent are insects - of 24,000 amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals 10,000 are birds, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, many of which could have survived outside the ark.
Click to expand...


Wait, what?

Genesis 6:17 - And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life, from under heaven; [and] every thing that [is] in the earth shall die.


ETA: Or this one:

Genesis 7:23 - And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark.
 
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David Henson,

What are you doing here? I haven't read the whole thing yet, but... what are you doing?

Noah's Flood? What? Joseph Campbell's Power of Myth. Just stop typing please, watch this, then come back. I mean, I ask you to come back. That is all. But watch this.

Do what you wish.
 
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