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The Deluge

This reminds of someone who is playing Darth Vader. Just because he can answer questions about the Force, does not magic it into existence.
 
David Henson said:
That isn't really a question, but a quick response . . . according to Bible chronology the flood took place in 2370 B.C.E. The Akkadian Epic of Gilgamesh, as we know it from the library of Ashurbanipal (who reigned from 668 - 627 B.C.E.) didn't begin to circulate, fragmentarily, until 1900 B.C.E. so how you came to assume the former was inspired by the later is beyond my comprehension as well as, I would like to think, the comprehension of science.
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The epic of Gilgamesh dates from 2300bce
the flood part contained in it is taken in whole from the story of Atrahasis which is even older, there is one difference between the two

The Atrahsis story does not tell of a global but a river flood, the Gilgamesh text is word for word the same except seas are exchanged for rivers.

The story of Noah is derived clearly from Gilgamesh, it is word for word the same, the only real change is that Gods are exchanged for God.

It only logically works this way round
you dont know what youre talking about do you
:p
 
Darat said:
It wasn't a boat - according to Genesis it was a rectangular wooden box, and yes magic was involved - the text says that ".... YHWH closed it for him". (The idea of it being a boat is a "modern" invention not at all supported by the Hebrew text.)
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Defining a ship as a floating box is not that bad a description of what a ship is.
 
There are few things in life that make a person sound more ignorant and foolish than trying to defend the truth of a story like the flood myth.

It's amazing to me that people with even a rudimentary education aren't embarrassed to even try.
 
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Cainkane1 said:
There was a program on NOVA about this. If all the ice caps melted there would still be plenty of dry land. Scientists know how much water the ice caps have and there isn't enough water to cover the entire earth.
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Heh, his statement was about 70% of the earth is water, that's like saying 100% of an apple is red.

70% of the surface might be covered with water, but the earth itself is quite large and all area covered by water is covered only like the thickness of the skin of an apple to an apple itself.
 
One thing I love about flood apologists, is that their theories eventually require not just evolution, but differentiation of species in a fantastically short period of time.

If you reduce each animal to "kinds" more broad than species, than they must evolve into the various species we've seen in the relatively modern era within less than 5000 years, when the very same people condemn evolution because they don't think the same thing would be possible over millions of years. To me, that's even weirder than the discussions of the water mechanics.
 
Cavemonster said:
One thing I love about flood apologists, is that their theories eventually require not just evolution, but differentiation of species in a fantastically short period of time.

If you reduce each animal to "kinds" more broad than species, than they must evolve into the various species we've seen in the relatively modern era within less than 5000 years, when the very same people condemn evolution because they don't think the same thing would be possible over millions of years. To me, that's even weirder than the discussions of the water mechanics.
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Exactly. The way for YE Creationists to prove Evolution wrong would be for them to prove their strawman of evolution correct.
 
What about the plants?

Being underwater that long would have surely killed the plants. I don't remember the bible mentioning Noah and his family traveling everywhere and collecting a pair of ever kind of plant from all over the world, nor could the plants all make a run for the ark.

Did God miracle a pair of ever kind of plant into the ark as well?
 
quarky said:
Slightly off-topic, but:

Any opinions on whether polar bears could survive on Antarctica?
I suppose it would be a risky experiment, but they do seem to be in trouble.
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I see no reason why they couldn't.

However, it would be hell on penguins. Think of a penguin standing on his egg in 100 mph storm. What is he going to do when a polar bear ready to bite his head off shows up?
 
Ladewig said:
As I said in the other thread, a God that create the cosmos can surely make water appear from nowhere and send it back to nothingness when He was done. All of your questions can be answered with "it was a miracle." The question that I think is much more important are why is there no evidence of a global flood. Fields as diverse as geology and biology show absolutely no evidence of a global flood within the last 100,000 years.
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Actually, the cosmology of the Bible was the Earth was a pocket in a fluid-filled space (the waters of chaos, The Lord moved above the waters and all that). The land below and the "firm" firmament above held back the waters on both sides.

When the flood occurred, God opened holes above, "and broke up the fonts below" to let water seep up from below.

Given this cosmology, which is in your actual Bible, there's trivially plenty of water to flood the earth, even if the vast, vast majority comes up from below rather than falls from the sky.


However, we know know the Earth is not a pocket in a fluid-filled space, and that rain falls because of condensation, not through holes in the firmament, and that water from down below is just underground water, and below that, rock, and below that, magma, and so on.


So the story of Noah cannot be taken in a literal way, or else you have to reject the Bible. There is no basis for supposing our modern understanding of cosmology while preserving the concept of a "great flood", but with mysteriously miracle-derived super-rains and whatnot. Either it happened as described, which it didn't because that cosmology is wrong, or it's an allegory, so why preserve any physical parts of it?
 
This is weird. My first name is Noah. My middle name is David. My last name is, you guessed it, Henson. Thus in a very odd confluence of events we have a thread about the Flood, which involved the Prophet Noah, started by a man named David Henson, which also happens to be my father's name.

But the thread-starter cannot be he, since my father is not a religious creduloid who evades direct questions after promising to answer direct questions about a stated topic.

Like I said, weird.
 
Fun isn't it, when they take their magic stories and try to get them to work by using science and they only go to show how little they do know about how science works.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
David Henson said:
That isn't really a question, but a quick response . . . according to Bible chronology the flood took place in 2370 B.C.E.
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That would mean that the flood took place in the middle of the pyramid-building era in Egypt.

Why don't any of the pyramids show signs of having been flooded?

How could there have been Egyptians both before and after the flood? Wouldn't the Egyptians have been wiped out during the flood, and replaced by some group of Noah's descendants, who would have had a different culture than the Egyptians whose land they inherited? And shown such cultural differences as, oh, I don't know- maybe not building pyramids and inscribing them with hieroglyphics?

How fast did Noah's kids have to breed in order to get a population in Egypt large enough to build a pyramid less than fifty years after the flood?
 
Well, why do you think the Sphinx looks like two different things stuck together, huh? Owned again, silly atheists!
 
Madalch said:
That would mean that the flood took place in the middle of the pyramid-building era in Egypt.

Why don't any of the pyramids show signs of having been flooded?

How could there have been Egyptians both before and after the flood? Wouldn't the Egyptians have been wiped out during the flood, and replaced by some group of Noah's descendants, who would have had a different culture than the Egyptians whose land they inherited? And shown such cultural differences as, oh, I don't know- maybe not building pyramids and inscribing them with hieroglyphics?

How fast did Noah's kids have to breed in order to get a population in Egypt large enough to build a pyramid less than fifty years after the flood?
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At times Egyptian history meets with that of Israel. 1728 B.C.E. Israel entered into Egypt and 215 years later the Exodus. 1513. Pharaoh Shishak's attack on Jerusalem took place during Rhoboam's fifth year in 993 B.C.E. King So of Egypt reigned about the same time as Hoshea, c. 758 - 740 B.C.E. and Pharaoh Necho's battle that resulted in Josiah's death was likely in 629 B.C.E. (1 Kings 14:25 / 2 Kings 17:4 / 2 Chronicles 35:20-24) Modern historians would differ from this as much as a century but narrow down to about 20 years by Necho's time.

The reason is that modern historians rely upon documents such as the Egyptian king lists and annals. The fragmentary Palermo Stone with the first five "dynasties," the Turin Papyrus which only gives fragmentary lists of kings and their reigns from the "Old Kingdom" into the "New Kingdom," and other fragmentary inscriptions. These and other independent inscriptions were coordinated in chronological order by Manetho, an Egyptian priest of the third century B.C.E. He devides the Egyptian monarchs into 30 dynasties which modern Egyptologists still use today. With astronomical calculations based upon Egyptian texts of lunar phases and the rising of the Sothis (Dog Star) a chronological table can be produced.

Manetho's work, of course, is preserved only through the writings of later historians such as Josephus, Sextus Julius Africanus, Eusebius and Syncellus. Third, fourth and late eighth to early ninth centuries C.E. They are fragmentary and often distorted. His work is distorted not only through scribal errors and revisers but untenable from the start. Legend and myth.

Part of the problem was that he listed princely lines from which later rulers over all Egypt sprang. Several Egyptian kings ruled at one time and the same time, so it was not necessarily a succession of kings on the throne one after the other but several reigning at the same time in different regions. The result is a great total number of years.

So when the Bible indicates 2370 B.C.E. as the date of the deluge, Egyptian history must have begun after that date even though Egyptian chronology goes all the way back to the year 3000 B.C.E. it actually doesn't.
 
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David Henson said:
At times Egyptian history meets with that of Israel. 1728 B.C.E. Israel entered into Egypt and 215 years later the Exodus. 1513. Pharaoh Shishak's attack on Jerusalem took place during Rhoboam's fifth year in 993 B.C.E. King So of Egypt reigned about the same time as Hoshea, c. 758 - 740 B.C.E. and Pharaoh Necho's battle that resulted in Josiah's death was likely in 629 B.C.E. (1 Kings 14:25 / 2 Kings 17:4 / 2 Chronicles 35:20-24) Modern historians would differ from this as much as a century but narrow down to about 20 years by Necho's time.

The reason is that modern historians rely upon documents such as the Egyptian king lists and annals. The fragmentary Palermo Stone with the first five "dynasties," the Turin Papyrus which only gives fragmentary lists of kings and their reigns from the "Old Kingdom" into the "New Kingdom," and other fragmentary inscriptions. These and other independent inscriptions were coordinated in chronological order by Manetho, an Egyptian priest of the third century B.C.E. He devides the Egyptian monarchs into 30 dynasties which modern Egyptologists still use today. With astronomical calculations based upon Egyptian texts of lunar phases and the rising of the Sothis (Dog Star) a chronological table can be produced.

Manetho's work, of course, is preserved only through the writings of later historians such as Josephus, Sextus Julius Africanus, Eusebius and Syncellus. Third, fourth and late eighth to early ninth centuries C.E. They are fragmentary and often distorted. His work is distorted not only through scribal errors and revisers but untenable from the start. Legend and myth.

Part of the problem was that he listed princely lines from which later rulers over all Egypt sprang. Several Egyptian kings ruled at one time and the same time, so it was not necessarily a succession of kings on the throne one after the other but several reigning at the same time in different regions. The result is a great total number of years.

So when the Bible indicates 2370 B.C.E. as the date of the deluge, Egyptian history must have begun after that date even though Egyptian chronology goes all the way back to the year 3000 B.C.E. it actually doesn't.
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Then, how come the accepted timeline fits radiocarbon evidences? How come it is corroborated through the documents of surrounding people?


You realize that, to reject accepted historical facts, you need a good and compelling reason, right? It not fitting your bias does not qualify...
 
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