Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.Graham said:
The Cult.
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Upchurch said:
"Hallo. My name is Inigo Montoya - you keeled my father, prepare to die."
Classic. If you haven't read the book, btw, I'd strongly recommend it. It's, well, it's . . . different. Very enjoyable though, especially if you're a fan of the movie, I'd say.
Graham
Well, since this thread has not turned out nearly as silly as I had originally hoped, I suppose I'll have to try to make some sort of rational point instead of arguing that Franko is a wacked out herione addict. Because, you see, either he is (Heads) or he isn't (tails) and just because we have no evidence one way or the other... 
Franko, your entire coin flipping analogy is just a False Dichotomy. Does God exist is not really a binary question unless you specify the exact details of God so that there's no options besides yes or no. For instance, say Zeus (as specifically described by the ancient greeks) does, in fact exist. Does that make the answer to "Does God exist?" a yes or no? Say you specify a Christian God. And it turns out the Mormon's have the correct theology. Does God Exist? Not the God most people are worshipping, but the Mormons would be thrilled, I suppose.
For that matter, what if your Logical Goddess exists? What then is the answer to the question?
There is also the matter of probability vs. fact. Will a stochastic process have outcome x is a probabilistic question, what year did Henry VIII die is not. Either way you feel on the question of the existence of a God I sincerely doubt you'll have many people argue that his existency is a probabalistic function. If it ever was, one would assume it's long since been determined.
Franko, your entire coin flipping analogy is just a False Dichotomy. Does God exist is not really a binary question unless you specify the exact details of God so that there's no options besides yes or no. For instance, say Zeus (as specifically described by the ancient greeks) does, in fact exist. Does that make the answer to "Does God exist?" a yes or no? Say you specify a Christian God. And it turns out the Mormon's have the correct theology. Does God Exist? Not the God most people are worshipping, but the Mormons would be thrilled, I suppose.
For that matter, what if your Logical Goddess exists? What then is the answer to the question?
There is also the matter of probability vs. fact. Will a stochastic process have outcome x is a probabilistic question, what year did Henry VIII die is not. Either way you feel on the question of the existence of a God I sincerely doubt you'll have many people argue that his existency is a probabalistic function. If it ever was, one would assume it's long since been determined.
So believing the most pessimistic view for no reason makes you an A-Theist. That is the True definition of an A-Theist. An A-Theist is a person who ALWAYS believes that bad things are going to happen to them. They believe this, because they know it is their ultimate Destiny.
Not if you phrase the question as:
Does ANY “God” (or “gods”) exist? Where “God” is defined as a Superior Entity capable of generating a Universe. This is a Yes or No question. It must be either Yes or No, there is no possible way for it to be both True and False, or neither True or False.
If Zeus is an entity capable of generating a Universe and Zeus could be shown to exist, then that would be a YES.
The Mormons are Christians. If their “God” exists then the Christian God exists.
You really think that Catholics would die and find themselves in Heaven, and find out that they were mostly correct, but that Mormonism is in fact more accurate are going to be “upset” by this revelation?
Believe me A-Theist they wouldn’t be nearly as ‘upset” as you would.
The LG is definitely capable of generating a universe, and She definitely exists.
How can a truly stochastic (random) process result in a Deterministic outcome? Obviously you have no comprehension of what you are talking about. A-Theists, like all pseudo-scientific and mystical cults, are forced to rely on Quantum confusion as the basis of their invisible magic powers.
My God exist, because your God (“free willy”) does not exist. It is as simple as that A-Theist. But you aren’t very smart, and you have been brainwashed, so I don’t expect you possess the perception to see it.
Another strawman. Not to mention irrelevant.Franko said:
Yes, you have to rephrase the question. That's what I was saying.
There you go, you've decreased one possible variable.
It is a yes or no question, but a still a relatively meaningless one without more detail. What else is your God capable of? Can He interact with humanity? Can He send prophets? Can he appear to people as a burning bush, a swan, a bull, a vision?
Remember, if the answer to your question is yes, it proves none of the above. You are arguing solely that a creator exists, and cannot speculate on the properties of that deity based on this sole question.
Really. So why don't you worship Zeus?
<chuckle> Well that's a matter of opinion. I've heard Baptists argue that Catholics aren't Christian, and the Mormons are way further out, but nonetheless...
Great. Why don't you worship the Christian God?
Now you've postulated both that Heaven exists and that Catholics would find themselves in a Mormon heaven. If we're going to speculate I'd imagine the Catholics who end up in a Mormon Hell would be pretty pissed off about the whole thing.
Heh, have you seen South Park's movie? I can't imagine anyone sane enjoying that version of Mormon heaven. But again, this is utter speculation.
Oh? And what shows that she exists and Zeus and Mormonism's God don't? Or do they all? Seems to me if you're going to accept one pantheon with this line of thinking you better accept them all. And that'd be rough cause if you're both Catholic and Baptist you can't have sex or drink.
Before hand it doesn't. After the result is determined it does. Basic probability theory there.
<chuckle> right. Better mention that to my professors. Those foolish A-Theists passed me! (They must be A-theists, they believe in randomness!)
I don't think you need to go as far as the quantum level to demonstrate randomness vs. determinism. Flip a coin. Before it lands you don't know the outcome. Afterwards you do. "If I flip a coin what is the outcome" is stochastic, "I just flipped a coin what was the outcome" is deterministic. I'm unsure of what argument you're trying to make here as this seems painfully simple.
A) I though she was a Goddess
B) How did you get here from there?
Even if I grant your premise that the existence of a Creator God is random I don't see how that demonstrates that your God exists.
Even if I grant that Free Will does not exist I don't see how that leads to a Logical Goddess, nor gravitons being consciousness, or matter not being real or any of the other things you've postulated for your God.
Remove the plank from your eye, dear Franko.
Considering I hear A-Theists yelling that there is no “God” without defining ‘God” If find your remarks completely hypocritical. How can A-Theists claim non-existence for something which they cannot even define?
The easiest way to imagine the Logical Goddess is to think of the Dungeonmaster in a game of Dungeons & Dragons. Essentially that is how She operates, She’s generating this universe in a very similar fashion, and like the DM She has no need to manifest as a physical entity here. But since She controls almost all of the information you transmit and receive She is utterly and completely controlling You.
God is defined by Her abilities. If you aren’t going to speculate on the properties of a deity then what is the point? By that logic a cricket could be “God”.
Are all you A-Theists retarded?
If someone wants to worship Zeus, then why should I care? I have no problem with Christians, Hindu’s, or Jews either.
In a way I do … well, more accurately the Christians worship my Goddess. They just don’t realize it. But that is True about all religions with a deity.
I suppose you are claiming that if one theory about the Big bang is wrong, that this would mean that ALL theories about the Big Bang were wrong? If not, then why does disproving the existence of Zeus or the Christian God, disprove the existence of ALL possible concepts of “God”?
God rewards people who are programmed to think like She does. Technically She punishes no one, but you A-Theists are in for a gigantic ugly surprise. When God dumps your sorry ass back to the Abyss where She found you, I think you will suddenly realize EXACTLY how important my Goddess has really been to you. Of course by then it will be too late, your Fate will have been sealed.
All religions are based on the same principle that Logical Deism is based on – Fatalism.
Atoms obey the Laws of Physics.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.
The Laws of Physics (TLOP) controls/makes YOU controls/makes CAR
In the same way that YOU have more “free will” then you CAR, TLOP has more “free will” then you do. To claim otherwise is no different then claiming your CAR has more “free will” then YOU do when you go for a ride in your CAR.
That is why religions have existed since the dawn of Time, and that is why people believe in “God”. If you A-Theists need to invent magical powers to deny the obvious then I don’t see how that makes you “scientific” at all. It seems more like it makes you a bunch of delusional lunatics. Thank the Goddess your whacky cult is limited to only about 3% of the overall population.
Atheism is like having a mental handicap. It is a malfunction in the algorithm of a Graviton.
"Eh, well, boring conversation anyway." Han Solo
Personally if we're going to just make up Gods I'll go with The Force, I prefer my hypothetical mystical rather than nonsensical. (And I'll kill any heathen who mentions midichlorians)
What I got out of your last post is that your Goddess is your Goddess because that's the way you define her. Fine. I define The Force to be having it's way with your Puny Goddess, and The Force is what everybody is really worshipping, not your insignificant Senate- I mean Goddess.
Really, all you have to say is that you're just making it up and most people around here would say that's fine. I mean really, I like D&D as much as the next guy, but I don't expect Lloth to be hanging out for me to worship in real life, nor do I think D&D is a particularly good metaphore as the players know it's just a game just as the DM does. This would seem to me to imply a pantheon rather than a singular Goddess... though at least now I can speculate that you insist on a female because that's what your last DM was.
btw, ever tried Baldur's Gate II? I bought it cheap and am trying to decide if it's worth playing through or not.
Personally if we're going to just make up Gods I'll go with The Force, I prefer my hypothetical mystical rather than nonsensical. (And I'll kill any heathen who mentions midichlorians)
What I got out of your last post is that your Goddess is your Goddess because that's the way you define her. Fine. I define The Force to be having it's way with your Puny Goddess, and The Force is what everybody is really worshipping, not your insignificant Senate- I mean Goddess.
Really, all you have to say is that you're just making it up and most people around here would say that's fine. I mean really, I like D&D as much as the next guy, but I don't expect Lloth to be hanging out for me to worship in real life, nor do I think D&D is a particularly good metaphore as the players know it's just a game just as the DM does. This would seem to me to imply a pantheon rather than a singular Goddess... though at least now I can speculate that you insist on a female because that's what your last DM was.
btw, ever tried Baldur's Gate II? I bought it cheap and am trying to decide if it's worth playing through or not.
Yeah, the “Force” or TLOP is the a-Theists current God. It is exactly like the real god, except it is “Non-conscious”. Unfortunately no A-Theist seems able to explain how one can still be considered conscious while they are under the complete and utter control of a “Non-conscious” force. If something non-conscious is controlling you, then you are also non-conscious. Do you feel non-conscious dipsh*t? … are you sure?
Beyond that you look like a typical brainwashed religious fanatic. You are more concerned with you own religious dogma and appearing to be “smart” then you are actually concerned for the Truth. A very bad Fate ultimately awaits you.
Um, badly? I bet you get into lots of accidents.MRC_Hans said:
And Franko, really, I worry far more about what I'm going to have for lunch than about whether you think I have a bad Fate. Not to mention that your idea that there is no free will makes that irrelevant as I can't do anything to avoid it.
You complain about Atheists being pessimistic, but what is more pessimistic than arguing that absolutely nothing that you do makes a difference since you're just a puppet with no say in the matter? If you believe in absolute determinism and predestination then my actions can only be blamed on your Goddess. Good thing The Force is ramming her up the butt, otherwise she might be feel bad about the whole thing.
You “free willy” worshippers have no concept of how reality really functions. Personally I find it amazing that any of you make it too adulthood. You a-Theists are all so gullible and naïve. You are very easy to manipulate, you are very easy to take advantage of.
Your misunderstanding regarding the basic nature of Fate is simply further evidence of your dire pessimistic nature. It does nothing to change the reality of how Fate actually functions. The fact is you don’t comprehend Fate, because you don’t want God to exist, so you haven’t bothered to examine the concept. I’d say you understand Fate about as well as a person who believes that the Earth is Flat and motionless understands interstellar travel.
Only if She created you little Graviton.
But She didn’t.
Your blasphemy has been noted hellspawn. Perhaps you better guard you butt in the future? (not that it will do any good).
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Hey, now that's something I can get behind. Any religion who has a muppet for a high priest is okay in my book.Aoidoi said:
woo-woo!
Yeah Upchimp, Win was right about you -- nothing but a stupid hypocritical forum TROLL!
run along loser-boy! www.infidels.org
Yeah Upchimp, Win was right about you -- nothing but a stupid hypocritical forum TROLL!
run along loser-boy! www.infidels.org
LOL, good one.Franko said:
Ignoring some irrelevant stuff...
Well crap, now you're changing your darn theology again! Can't you put together a website or something? Trying to figure out what you believe is like trying to nail jello to the ceiling. If your Oh Most High Powerful Logical Goddess didn't create me, who did? And if somebody else created me (Go The Force!) then isn't it at least as powerful as your LG? Personally I like The Force better, we get lightsabers, not driving priveleges.
Well, I was an offensive lineman in college, so I'm not too worried about my butt. But you sure got a purty mouth...
(hmmm... I think I'll wander over to the blasphemy thread, it's more interesting anyway.)
And there's the crux of the problem, dear Franko. According to you everything is predetermined, therefore my actions and belief are irrelevant. You keep calling A-theism pessimistic, but atheists believe that it's up to people to make the world a better place. Tell me, how does a LDist think the world is going to get any better? By threatening non-believers (AKA the entire world but you) with anal rape?
Btw, your logical goddess is also ugly and skanky, I saw her in a three way with Superman and Green Lantern, too. (gee, this pretending imagination = reality bit is kinda fun, now I see why you so enjoy it. Though honestly I think your version is a tad dull. Where are the lizard overlords?
)
Tricky
Briefly immortal
That is precicely why I have been compiling The List. The Sage of Baltimore says so many things that it is hard to keep them straight. I keep them on a file which I update from time to time on those rare occasions when Franko actually says something new. All of these entries are correct representations of what Franko has said, not straw men.Aoidoi said:
Please feel free to use them if you wish to discuss certain points with Franko.
Apologies to everyone for posting the same thing yet again.
*****************
NOTE: Many of these “beliefs” were verified by Franko in this post.
Origins
- This universe is part of an omniverse.
- The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
- The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity
- This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
- The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
- The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
- The Logical Goddess is bound by both fate and logic.
- Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
- Consciousness creates matter.
- The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics .
How Things Work
- One soul = one graviton.
- Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
- The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
- Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
- Spin is quality of Mass, and Charge is quality of Velocity.
- The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
- Determinism/Fate/”free will” is the interaction of gravitons of varying strength.
The same logic that leads me to conclude a more evolved being exist leads me to believe that entities’ gender female. - There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatabalist free will. None.
- The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
- This entire Universe is essentially an illusion. You and I actually exist as particles in the Truer reality of the Omniverse. This universe is a carefully constructed elaboration of the True reality.
- TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
- The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
- The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
- True randomness does not exist.
- If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
- Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
- Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
- Gravitons are not real in the sense that you and I are real.
- Gravitons obey a higher law that we'd probably call Thermodymics.
- A Graviton is just a special kind of meme, and memes are just distinct packets of information.
- Gravitons are made of time
- Objects without gravitons don't really exist in the way that You or I do. They are merely projections.
- Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
- The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
- If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
- Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.
- At the core of your Soul there is a special type of meme, a special type of algorithm. It possesses this quality you call self-awareness to a far greater degree than other memes. It has this quality because it possesses a meme which gives it Simultaneous Perception. In short it has the ability to perceive two realities (or more) at the same time.
- The rules which bind all consciousness are the Laws of Time and Gravity. These are not laws in the same sense as TLOP. They are more like the base programming language that the consciousnesses are written in.
- Electromagnetism is the memetic projection of the Goddess used as an enhanced means of conveying information.
Morality
- Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
- Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
- The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
- the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed.
- There are consequences for the things you do.
- The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
- You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
- MPB is what is actually evolving. Your algorithm (as well as your database) expands, and evolves over time. It grows. It becomes more complex. You become more self aware. You gain individuality, you gain power. You gain control. You gain freedom.
- Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane
- Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.
- A situation is a pattern of events outside the context of time.
Miscellaneous/The Lexicon
- Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
- Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time)
- No evidence against a thing means evidence for a thing.
- choices are preordained outputs
- In LD an Eternity is a very long long period of time, not an “infinite” period of time.
- Logic works by having people compare their explanations and seeing which is more logical.
A more detailed explanation of the Logical Deism creation story is given here.
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
That's why I joined the cult. One so seldom gets to meet other solipsists.
Forget Logical Deism, A-Theist-Boy, let’s just concentrate on You. After all, Solipsism is True, and no one else exist besides YOU. You see you’re a-theism is much simpler this way. Now you don’t have to account for the entire universe magically appearing. Now all you have to account for is YOU magically appearing. Surely that is much, much, much easier to imagine! Because once YOU magically appear, then YOU could just imagine the entire Universe.
Yes, but if the force is non-conscious, then how on Earth could you possibly be conscious?
I mean … what you are claiming is that “a magic mystery “robot”” built you, and somehow YOU are more complicated and elaborate that the “magic mystery “robot”” itself!
Does that mean that when you build a CAR, that the CAR is actually more conscious (complicated and elaborate) than YOU?
Really? How so? Or should I ask, why would Fatalism suddenly and magically make your beliefs and perceptions irrelevant?
How exactly? By telling people their existence is meaningless, there are no ultimate answers, everything fades, and you cease to exist when you die? Based on Nothing but “Wishful Thinking” (i.e. utter, dire Pessimism)??
You need to wake up and smell the coffee coppertop; You are playing Pascal’s wager except you are rooting for the loss! You are nuts my little Graviton – bonkers – insane in the membrane. You are the kind of guy who likes to burn his hand on the hot stove, and you are telling me I am the crazy one for not liking it.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2001
- Messages
- 34,537
1) God Exist = True: (HEADS) Theism/Deism
2) God Exist = False (TAILS) A-Theism
3) God Exist = Unknown (NO CALL) Agnosticism
This isn't even close to be a good analogy for learning. Not all knowledge is a flip of a coin. Scientists don't flip a coin to see if gravity will work today or not, there is no evidence that gravity will fail today so we don't even consider it as a viable threat.
You claiming that no evidence for “God” proves that no “God” exist is as absurd as someone claiming that tossed coins always land TAILS up because there is no evidence they ever land HEADS up. If you want to pretend that this isn’t True then you can “starwman” yourself silly for all I care.
If you can name one thing that exists but doesn't have any evidence associated with it, feel free to do it. Until you do, I'll stick with my conclusion that there is no god.
So you don’t believe that a tossed coin will land either HEADS or TAILS now? Like I said, you are retarded.
Knowledge is not gained by a toss of coins.
“free will” and Fate are mutually exclusive binary options. Either one is True, or the other is. If you can’t see it, then you really aren’t very bright at all.
Hardly, there are other options to your false assumption. How about free will for some and fate for others? Wow, I guess your mind isn't creative enough to come up with more than 2 possibilities to this.
Kenny believing in Un-God for no reason is far, far stupidier than believing in “God” for no reason. But don’t let me pee on your pouty little pessimism parade.
Is "stupider" a word? If you're going to comment on a person's intelligence, at least use good grammar. How smart does one need to be to pick up garbage?
Well if you are claiming to understand them so well, perhaps you can explain their positions to me?
They've stated them clearly enough that most people on the forum can understand them. You are part of a minority that cannot, perhaps it's because of your small IQ.
I’d say a religious belief is something you believe based on NO Evidence.
I agree.
So what is your evidence that there is no “God”. I am betting you have NONE, religious fanatic! But feel free to prove me wrong.
The lack of evidence is evidence that there is no god.
I can explain why:
Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP!
This has been commented on and demonstrated to be false so many times that I'll just say this about it:
What is the YOU making decisions Kenny? There is no YOU, there is only your physical brain made of atoms, and those atoms obey the same laws of chemistry that any other chemicals obey. You aren’t making any decisions my boy, chemistry is making all of your decisions for You!
I agree.
Yeah, and you call yourself “scientific”??? Jump off the roof of a tall building and try telling yourself that the laws of Physics don’t control anything you stupid A-Theist moron!
Jump off the roof and convince "TLOP" to make an exception to gravity for you and I'll concede to your conclusion.
Yeah, but it is definitely a mechanism that tells Atoms (chemicals0 what to do, and since you are NOTHING but atoms (chemicals) then I would say TLOP is DEFINITELY telling you what to do. If not TLOP then where is the YOU? Are you claiming to have a “Soul” Kenny? Because that is what it sounds like you are claiming.
No such thing as a soul. TLOP are not any more conscious than a prison cell is conscious. They only constrain us, not control us.