The Coyotes of Ramapo

[ahhell]

And the First Immigrants had dogs when the Europeans got here. Plenty of time for interbreeding.

Native American's had dogs when they got here 10k+ years ago.

Anyrate, coydog is much more likely than coywolf on account of dogs being ubiquitous in N. American and wolves having been nearly driven to extinction. Its why you have coyotes in N. Jersey. Even with the understanding that there has been interbreeding between the three for roughly 10k+ years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#/media/File:Coyote_expansion_by_decade.jpg

 

[rockysmith76]

Native American's had dogs when they got here 10k+ years ago.

Anyrate, coydog is much more likely than coywolf on account of dogs being ubiquitous in N. American and wolves having been nearly driven to extinction. Its why you have coyotes in N. Jersey. Even with the understanding that there has been interbreeding between the three for roughly 10k+ years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#/media/File:Coyote_expansion_by_decade.jpg

More on the subject: It's not just dogs they're hybridizing with, it's all 3, yote/wolf/dog in various mixes, which is why I oppose such a black and white take on it, it's murkier than that and likely short term evolution occurring under own nose, minimally interesting as a case of adaption.

https://www.businessinsider.com/images-of-coywolves-in-the-northeast-2015-10

https://nywolf.org/wp-content/uploa...-and-admixture_a-response-to-Way-and-Lynn.pdf

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/coywolves-are-taking-over-eastern-north-america-180957141/

 

[rockysmith76]

Quote from the Smithsonian Article: "People living in Eastern Canada and U.S. are probably familiar with the smart, adaptable wild canine that lives in their forests, neighborhood parks and even cities. What they may not know is that eastern coyotes aren’t true coyotes at all. They might better be known as hybrids, or coywolves. As deforestation, hunting and poisoning depleted the population numbers of eastern wolves, they interbred with western coyotes. A report from PBS writes that the first eastern coyote or coywolf appeared around 1919 in Ontario, Canada. Today, wolf DNA has popped up in "coyote" poop as far south as Virginia.

The hybrid, or Canis latrans var., is about 55 pounds heavier than pure coyotes, with longer legs, a larger jaw, smaller ears and a bushier tail. It is part eastern wolf, part wester wolf, western coyote and with some dog (large breeds like Doberman Pinschers and German Shepherds), reports The Economist. Coywolves today are on average a quarter wolf and a tenth dog.

That blend helps make the hybrid so successful that it now numbers in the millions, Roland Kays of North Carolina State University tells The Economist. The reporter writes: Coyotes dislike hunting in forests. Wolves prefer it. Interbreeding has produced an animal skilled at catching prey in both open terrain and densely wooded areas, says Dr Kays. And even their cries blend those of their ancestors. The first part of a howl resembles a wolf’s (with a deep pitch), but this then turns into a higher-pitched, coyote-like yipping.

The dog DNA might even include some tolerance for the noise of cities. At least 20 now live in New York City, and others have been spotted in Washington D.C., Boston and Philidelphia, reports Michael Tanenbaum for the Philly Voice.

While the fact that coywolves can still breed with wolves and dogs means it doesn’t quite fit the definition of a new species (for some), that may change. Coywolves are telling an "amazing contemporary evolution story that’s happening right underneath our nose," Kays tells The Economist. Someday, they may unambiguously be another species, but for now coywolves are enjoying the advantages of hybrid vigor."

 

[ahhell]

While the fact that coywolves can still breed with wolves and dogs means it doesn’t quite fit the definition of a new species (for some), that may change. Coywolves are telling an "amazing contemporary evolution story that’s happening right underneath our nose," Kays tells The Economist. Someday, they may unambiguously be another species, but for now coywolves are enjoying the advantages of hybrid vigor."

You've largely made your case, I'd argue its a bit more nuanced than implied at first but that's how conversation works. So, eastern coyotes clearly have more wolf than western coyotes, seems more dog too but less dog than wolf.

I doubt there will be speciation anytime soon though, given that its moot whether coyotes are a different species from wolves and dogs in the first place.

 

[rockysmith76]

You've largely made your case, I'd argue its a bit more nuanced than implied at first but that's how conversation works. So, eastern coyotes clearly have more wolf than western coyotes, seems more dog too but less dog than wolf.

I doubt there will be speciation anytime soon though, given that its moot whether coyotes are a different species from wolves and dogs in the first place.

It seems the wolf mixing was earlier on, dog more recently, but it's all three in the mix at this point. To the point of them being common in the Northeast, having almost hit one with my car last November I would agree.

 

[phiwum]

The coyotes here in southeastern Massachusetts have significantly increased in size in the last couple generations. I've been within ten feet of them on a couple of occasions, not in full daylight but in dusk with good visibility, so I've gotten pretty good looks at them. So has my wife and several neighbors, and they've all seen the same change.

Interbreeding is certainly a possibility. There haven't been any attacks around here yet, though.

I'm south of Boston. I haven't noticed any change in size but I have seen coyotes around here only six years or so. Are you thinking longer term than that?

 

[rockysmith76]

I'm south of Boston. I haven't noticed any change in size but I have seen coyotes around here only six years or so. Are you thinking longer term than that?

You probably have them, we have both where I am, though Coywolves seem further north but there is a subtle difference in appearance as well as a size difference. Coywolves seem to have a thick neck and muzzle, and a shorter, tail. Long term is likely, with wolf intermixing sounding like less recent than dog but over more time it seems.

A thing to bear in mind is animal populations don't seem to stay still. I've seen a federal map claiming the natural range of the black bear ends in New Hampshire, the bear population is south of Massachusetts and increasing. My point being much of this interbreeding over time seems to have taken place over a large region, so claims like there are no wild wolves in Jersey aren't relevant, the process of interbreeding didn't have to happen there, the aftereffects have moved regardless.

 

[William Parcher]

so claims like there are no wild wolves in Jersey aren't relevant

It is a fact that there are no wild wolves in New Jersey or Massachusetts.

The reason that I keep repeating this is because we have a big audience here and things that you have said could mislead people into thinking that there actually are wild wolves in New Jersey and/or Massachusetts.

 

[casebro]

Neutering the male pets might be part of it. If somebody has a bitch in heat the mostly likely loose partner is a coyote. So I see several coy/dog pets. One looks half Chihuahua. When your pet drops a litter, tose are raised as tame pets.

Flip side is the the coyote bitches only have coyotes to mate with, so the wild ones I see on the city streets look pure bred. I'm in urban San Diego.

San Diego has canyons, historically too steep to build on. Fingers of them protrude into the city core. They are sage brush enclaves of wilderness. Coyotes, rabbits, raccoons, bob cats...

And we have become too citified. No more BB guns in the back yard, no more tying your 22 rifle to your bicycle and pedaling out to the fringe hoping to bring home a rabbit. Or taking pot shots at the coyotes, which learned to avoid people-and cities. And the crows have taken over the skies. Seasonal flocking of maybe 300 at once.

Offsetting though is the flock of parrots. Breeding from escapees, the green and red ones with the occasional big blue one.

 

[rockysmith76]

It is a fact that there are no wild wolves in New Jersey or Massachusetts.

The reason that I keep repeating this is because we have a big audience here and things that you have said could mislead people into thinking that there actually are wild wolves in New Jersey and/or Massachusetts.

There was nothing misleading in what I said, in fact backed up by a multitude of articles. Your point true or not is irrelevant. What's called a Coyote in the Northeast is open to interpretation due to the multiple of influences on the gene pool in question. Like it or not there's Wolf DNA in the mix and has been there for some time, and whether or not you feel a particular species in a given state or not has nothing to with the subject.

You categorically stated that the Coyotes could only be intermixing with dogs, that is patently untrue and proven so if you read the attached articles. The situation is not black and white.

 

[Myriad]

I'm south of Boston. I haven't noticed any change in size but I have seen coyotes around here only six years or so. Are you thinking longer term than that?

A little longer term, yes. I'm comparing coyotes that we saw and heard rather rarely circa 2001, with the larger and more numerous (or at least, more frequently visible/audible) ones seen this past year. This is on the MA south coast. But we weren't living here during most of the interval in between.

The neighbors are talking about a similar time scale. I said "generations" to refer to the number of animal generations likely over an about 20 year period. The articles are saying the hybridization has been going on for a century, but 20 years and up to half a dozen generations of animals is enough time for a new variant of the mix to become prevalent in the region, or for one "tribe" of smaller hybrids (perhaps, back then, living in relative isolation in the pine barrens here) to have been replaced by a wider-ranging and larger-bodied one.

In any case, the descriptions of present day coywolves in the articles matches perfectly with what we've seen and heard recently. Right down to the howl/bark/yip hybrid cry, which when we first heard it had us thinking that the neighborhood dogs were joining in with the pack.

 

[William Parcher]

Here is a current range map for both species of wolf in North America. They are a considerable distance from Massachusetts and New Jersey.

 

[calebprime]

Here is a current range map for both species of wolf in North America. They are a considerable distance from Massachusetts and New Jersey.

at first with that map I didn't notice that red hatching only means "suitable habitat" -- on my screen the words explaining it are small.

The only red wolf is that small red dot in one state, it appears.

 

[rockysmith76]

Here is a current range map for both species of wolf in North America. They are a considerable distance from Massachusetts and New Jersey.

the subject is Coyotes/Coy wolves, not wolves. And if you read one if the articles it indicated the red wolf to be a hybridization itself.

Those lovely range maps aren't accurate over time as animal populations are static, they move around, over time. I used black bears as an example already.

NO one is saying there are wolves in either state, but Coy wolves are.

 

[William Parcher]

There was nothing misleading in what I said, in fact backed up by a multitude of articles.

You were very misleading and I will show it again here...

There are no wild wolves in Massachusetts or New Jersey.

timber wolves no, red wolves yes

There are no wild red wolves in Massachusetts or New Jersey.

Based on what? Hiking there often, you would be wrong.

It is quite obvious that you are arguing for the existence of red wolves in Massachusetts and New Jersey. That is misleading because it is wrong.

 

[William Parcher]

the subject is Coyotes/Coy wolves, not wolves...

...NO one is saying there are wolves in either state, but Coy wolves are.

You did say that red wolves exist in Massachusetts and New Jersey. That is misleading because it is wrong. I showed your misleading statements about wild red wolves above. Here is more of the same misleading information from you...

There are no wild wolves in Massachusetts or New Jersey.

timber wolves no, red wolves yes, slow being phased out by you guessed it,, interbreeding.

In order for the red wolf to "slowly be phased out of Massachusetts and New Jersey by interbreeding" the red wolf has to currently be there. The red wolf isn't there - so it's wrong and misleading to say that it is being "phased out" there.

 

[rockysmith76]

You did say that red wolves exist in Massachusetts and New Jersey. That is misleading because it is wrong. I showed your misleading statements about wild red wolves above. Here is more of the same misleading information from you...




In order for the red wolf to "slowly be phased out of Massachusetts and New Jersey by interbreeding" the red wolf has to currently be there. The red wolf isn't there - so it's wrong and misleading to say that it is being "phased out" there.

as far as being "in the gene pool" they are in the mix which is what i meant, and reinforced with the articles. Maybe stop polluting a discussion on an interesting subject by trying to paint things black and white. The whole back drop is a century of interbreeding, not what you're obsessing on. Coywolves have that DNA in their mix regardless of any given State as they, coywolves have a large northeastern range.

We're talking about the greater Northeast and a century of time, so its not that cut and dry, a lot has shifted over that time and area.

 

[Ziggurat]

My understanding is, they aren't all that dangerous until the ACME catalog and credit card arrives.

I think they become less dangerous at that point... at least to everyone but themselves.

 

[theprestige]

I hadn't given it any thought before but red wolves in Massachusetts is now definitely part of my head canon. I'm sure this will come back to bite me some day.

 

[rockysmith76]

I think they become less dangerous at that point... at least to everyone but themselves.

NEVER buy the earthquake pills...;