• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

The Biggest Scam in History

I don't see how this is a scam, though. (Let alone the "Biggest in History".) Who are the victims? What, exactly, is the crime? If it were all a scam, then how come the "scammers" allow these transactions to be out in the open?
 
Right. Not necessarily explaining fractional reserve banking here, just How you can increase the money supply in various ways that also aren't the BIGGEST SCAM IN HISTORY.

Unfortunately, I would have to agree that the fiat money-fractional reserve system is the biggest scam in history. The relevant quotes from numerous historical figures and former central bankers like Josiah Stamp, bear this out.

Understood. No I wasn't describing fractional reserve banking, just a way that I can increase the money supply through a loan/debt agreement. The other parable is more relevant to specifically Fractional Reserve Banking. Of course it's still silly and simplified.

As per your example, you weren't increasing the money supply, but merely issuing private debt. Bonds, while generally liquid investments, are not money, and cannot circulate as money because they have different yields and maturities. You would only be creating money if you created corn-receipts, AND if these receipts were widely accepted. You would be creating fractional money if you issued more receipts than you had underlying commodity to deliver.

I don't think it's based on a fraud. AFAIK, banks are allowed to store as much of other people's money as they want, and disclose all of it. Is it not true that there is a minimum reserve required by law, and not a maximum? If you believe it's unethical, then don't bank with them. I'm sure that some banks have a higher reserve ratio that you might deem more ethical. But it makes the world go around, and it's a voluntary and transparent transaction between depositor and banker.

The fraud rests on the logical impossibility of redeeming all of the deposits at the same time, the inflationary aspects of FRB, and perhaps most importantly the systemic risk that is introduced by allowing it. If you support fractional reserve banking, then you support "too big to fail", implicitly. Anything else is just self-delusion.

If banks loaned their own paid-in capital, and used certificatates of deposit as their only form of "credit intermediation", the above problems would be solved. Our economic growth would be both sustainable, and equitable, and our economy wouldn't be dependent on and held hostage by banks that are deemed "too big to fail".

True, but I did increase the money supply, by issuing these bills. You're right that they aren't liquid, but my goal was really just to show a way in which you can create money "out of thin air."

You didn't create money, you created a promissory note. There is a difference.

Which is true, and you're not required to deposit money in a bank if you so choose. There is also a presumably more risk to carrying around $20,000 in your wallet, or investing it in even less liquid investments of your choosing.

Whether people should be allowed to use alternate currencies is a different subject entirely, by the way.

You may not be required to deposit money in any one particular bank, but you're required to deposit money in the banking system if you want to participate economically, and if you want to partially avoid the punitive inflation tax. As far as risk is concerned, fiat money-FRB increases it. Whereas you may be personally disinclined to lend $20,000 towards a subprime loan for the crackhead down the street, your banker isn't. Especially if he can profit by the transaction, and then immediately sell it to Wall Street where it is then sold back to you as a collateralized debt-obligation, and then ultimately loot the taxpayer when the whole system implodes.

I think it is. The tickets have become currency. Money is worth what people say it's worth. If the shopkeeper trusts that the corn will be produced, and he voluntarily accepts the ticket for a pair of shoes, then that ticket has become a form of currency.

Again, it would only be currency if it were fiduciary money, ie: a corn-receipt payable today, AND if it were widely accepted. Your example described nothing but private debt.

Right. But it doesn't really matter, as I'm just illustrating a way that the money supply can be increased. As long as people are in fact not requiring immediate checking on demand of all notes they carry, then the money supply increases.

In your given example, corn is money. Therefore, the money supply only increases as more corn is produced. The only thing you've increased are promises to pay corn, which may or may not be consistent with reality, and which shouldn't be confused as money.

Your argument seems to be based on the evils of fiat currency more than fractional reserve banking. Am I wrong? Would you rather all money be backed by gold? Would you rather banks be required by law to hold 100% reserves?

I think it should be up to the free market to decide what is money, and since a free market requries the abolition of fraud, 100% reserve banking. I recognize that perpetually devaluing fiat currency is nothing more than a regressive tax, and that FRB results in an unstable economy subject to the business (boom-bust) cycle, the bust which we're about to experience now. The gold standard failed, and would fail again in the context of fractional reserve banking, and in the context of money representing merely a fiduciary promise to pay gold.

Again, they are analogous only in that they are both examples of using the odd fact that we don't have 100% demand on notes, and we can use that fact to increase the money supply in various ways.

If by "we" you mean the government, they can increase the money supply because it has little to no intrinsic value at all, and because it is forced into circulation by the laws that require you to pay your income taxes in Federal Reserve Notes. I'm only pointing out that your example has neither of these characteristics, and isn't an example of money creation in any practical sense. You attempted to create an analogy using corn, something wholesome that most of us like to eat, in an effort to ridicule/deflect criticism of the money and banking system.
 
Last edited:
I don't see how this is a scam, though. (Let alone the "Biggest in History".) Who are the victims?...
Everybody that doesn't benefit from said program.

What, exactly, is the crime?
Fraud.

...If it were all a scam, then how come the "scammers" allow these transactions to be out in the open?
Because it's currently legal. Because of the ignorance of the otherwise intelligent people much like yourself.
 
I think it should be up to the free market to decide what is money, and since a free market requries the abolition of fraud, 100% reserve banking. I recognize that perpetually devaluing fiat currency is nothing more than a regressive tax, and that FRB results in an unstable economy subject to the business (boom-bust) cycle, the bust which we're about to experience now. The gold standard failed, and would fail again in the context of fractional reserve banking, and in the context of money representing merely a fiduciary promise to pay gold.

So you're stuck with the same dilemma as always--known here at the JREF as Tippit Cognitive Impairment Syndrome. You want less government intervention in the money market but more government control over the supply and demand of capital and its derivatives.

Who is going to abolish this "fraud" of which you speak? Magical pixies?
 
Depends, we have to get photo to see if she/he has the 3rd breast. Or is that witchery ?
I am pretty sure witchery is evil too, but some pictures would clearly improve the tread.

(Assuming Giggywig is female.):boxedin:
 
I am pretty sure witchery is evil too, but some pictures would clearly improve the tread.

(Assuming Giggywig is female.):boxedin:
I have man-boobs, want to see them? I'll jiggle them for you for 5 bucks.
 
I have man-boobs, want to see them? I'll jiggle them for you for 5 bucks.
:D
naee, forget it, you can be plenty evil with just two nipples.

Welcome to the club BTW, I work in international commerce, facilitation the exploitation of somebody or other. (Seafarer)
 
So you're stuck with the same dilemma as always--known here at the JREF as Tippit Cognitive Impairment Syndrome. You want less government intervention in the money market but more government control over the supply and demand of capital and its derivatives.

Who is going to abolish this "fraud" of which you speak? Magical pixies?

I like that.

However a little rearrangement Tippit Impaired Cognitive Syndrome.

Or TICS in other words.


I actually think he makes alot of sense.

eta

Have enjoyed the read.
 
Last edited:
These secret cabals ruling the world are a pain in the ass. I moved my money to the local credit union where at least I can feel like I'm dealing with people not belonging to the New World Order. ;)
 
I don't see how you can consider fractional banking to be fraud. Isn't it assumed that investors generally know that the bank wouldn't be able to honor all of its obligations in the event of a sudden run on it? If this is understood, where's the fraud?
Fraud requires misinformation somewhere in the chain. I'm not seeing that here.
 
I don't see how you can consider fractional banking to be fraud. Isn't it assumed that investors generally know that the bank wouldn't be able to honor all of its obligations in the event of a sudden run on it? If this is understood, where's the fraud?
Fraud requires misinformation somewhere in the chain. I'm not seeing that here.

You don't live in Tippit's world. Of course you don't see it.
 
The problem with this CT is that there's no sufficient explanation for where all the weath that was supposedly taken has ended up (we're talking a sizable percentage of world economic production for centuries), nor what the alternate disposition of that wealth would look like had the conspiracy never existed.

Where would all the new goods, services, and land come from to allow for this increase in wealth without an increase in inflation?
 
Welcome to the club BTW, I work in international commerce, facilitation the exploitation of somebody or other. (Seafarer)

When you think about it, we are all eager and active participants in what Tippit and the OP call a gigantic fraud. How are they planning to deal with our fraudulent and deceptive practices?

This is never really spelled out in the VonMises-style literature. They're going to have to do something with us because we won't stand for a reduced lifestyle in which digging for gold is thought to be the zenith of human endeavour.
 
When you think about it, we are all eager and active participants in what Tippit and the OP call a gigantic fraud. How are they planning to deal with our fraudulent and deceptive practices?

This is never really spelled out in the VonMises-style literature. They're going to have to do something with us because we won't stand for a reduced lifestyle in which digging for gold is thought to be the zenith of human endeavour.

I once saw a newspaper drawing of someone fencing in South Africa in that "Crime scene, do not cross" plastic tape.

I imagine the gold bugs drawing similar tape around their compound to fence in the rest of the planet. :D
I am not sure about the text, but camp should feature prominently.
 
[...]

The fraud rests on the logical impossibility of redeeming all of the deposits at the same time, the inflationary aspects of FRB, and perhaps most importantly the systemic risk that is introduced by allowing it. If you support fractional reserve banking, then you support "too big to fail", implicitly. Anything else is just self-delusion.

Not necessarily. I can hold the view that fractional reserve banking is efficient and desirable and simultaneously hold the view that governments should not bail out banks.

Consider that even without governmental intervention, all banks would not opt to hold 100% reserves. There may be a few that do, and I imagine, were that the case, you would put your money there. But is there anything stopping them now? If governments did not back up banks, and they did not set up the FDIC, I imagine there would be more incentive to scrutinize banks' balance sheets to see if they are investing heavily in credit default swaps of dubious validity, or investing in securities that might be part of a bubble, or really, any bad investment. But government's intervention into failing banks doesn't force banks to not hold 100% of their account holders money on demand.

If banks loaned their own paid-in capital, and used certificatates of deposit as their only form of "credit intermediation", the above problems would be solved. Our economic growth would be both sustainable, and equitable, and our economy wouldn't be dependent on and held hostage by banks that are deemed "too big to fail".

I think this would be economically sluggish, but regardless, given this is your view, would you agree that this is only possible through regulation or law? Are you in support of a regulation or law that requires 100% reserves?

You may not be required to deposit money in any one particular bank, but you're required to deposit money in the banking system if you want to participate economically, and if you want to partially avoid the punitive inflation tax. As far as risk is concerned, fiat money-FRB increases it. Whereas you may be personally disinclined to lend $20,000 towards a subprime loan for the crackhead down the street, your banker isn't. Especially if he can profit by the transaction, and then immediately sell it to Wall Street where it is then sold back to you as a collateralized debt-obligation, and then ultimately loot the taxpayer when the whole system implodes.

Then don't bank with them

What are you against?

1) Fractional Reserve Banking? Then you are in favor of regulating the banking industry by making them hold demand accounts with 100% reserves.

2)Government involvement in banking? Then you will likely have to accept that Fractional Reserve Banking will still exist, even without a central bank.

What am I missing, I can't grab a hold of your position on this?


I think it should be up to the free market to decide what is money, and since a free market requries the abolition of fraud, 100% reserve banking. I recognize that perpetually devaluing fiat currency is nothing more than a regressive tax, and that FRB results in an unstable economy subject to the business (boom-bust) cycle, the bust which we're about to experience now. The gold standard failed, and would fail again in the context of fractional reserve banking, and in the context of money representing merely a fiduciary promise to pay gold.

No way. A totally free market would still settle on a % reserve that people can agree with, on average. People want banks that give high interest, and charge less, and come with benefits, just like any other product. Banks that opt for 100% reserves would only be able to offer the type of honesty and idealism that you seem to prefer. The market would be rather small, even if all information was available. What that percentage would be (on average) is up for debate, but it wouldn't be 100%. Not even close.

If by "we" you mean the government, they can increase the money supply because it has little to no intrinsic value at all, and because it is forced into circulation by the laws that require you to pay your income taxes in Federal Reserve Notes. I'm only pointing out that your example has neither of these characteristics, and isn't an example of money creation in any practical sense. You attempted to create an analogy using corn, something wholesome that most of us like to eat, in an effort to ridicule/deflect criticism of the money and banking system.

First of all, no I don't mean the government.

Like I've said, fractional reserve banking can exist and likely would exist without the government. Can you prove that fractional banking is dependent on the government? Can you provide any history that shows this type of banking did not exist before government intervention?

And I honestly wasn't trying to ridicule critics of the banking system. I'm just pointing out that it's not that mysterious, or IMO, unethical to use OPM to create new money, as long as it's transparent. Forget government, let's talk about FRB, only.

Are you against the concept, or the government's involvement? 2 different things...
 
Last edited:

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom