The Biblical Realities of Hell

[Jon.]

In time my friend, in time.

In time? In time?

How about during the lifetime of the people in question? How about before their hate causes more than one person pain or grief? How about before any lonely seniors "contribute" their life savings to their lavish lifestyles? How about before he lets children die of curable diseases that their parents are convinced he will cure? How about before his so-called representatives on Earth molest innocent children?

And that's not to mention all the abuses that went on before the 21st century. Crusades, wars against heretics, witch-burnings, inquisitions, cultural destruction, etc., etc. All done in his name, without a peep from him.

It's not like it would take much. Really. An unambiguous appearance at a widely-televised event (the Superbowl, the World Cup or Champions' League final, a US presidential inauguration, the upcoming royal wedding, just to name a few contemporary examples), a declaration and clear demonstration of who he is, and a quick statement that no humans (or none except a clearly specified few) are actually speaking for him. It would take maybe a half hour of his time. Is that too much to ask?

I guess it is, from a fictional caricature character.

 

[Marcus]

Beliefs......mmmmmmmmmmm...........

You know, being an atheist is not really a belief for me. Saying that I have a belief is like saying I have a hobby if I don't collect stamps and coins.

Paul

I agree with you, despite my phrasing. It always bugs me when theists claim that atheism is a religion. Is non-belief in Zeus a religion? Do Christians spend their Sundays attending the Church of Non-Belief in Gaia? The problem is that Christians perceive their own particular fantasy as the default position. They don't seem to realize that they are atheists with respect to every single god, except for one.

 

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by Ladewig
What exactly is your definition of truly evil?



huh??

Lord knows that no one would ever accuse me of being an Edge apologist, but I think it is relatively clear that he meant the covet question.

 

[tsig]

I doubt it for the first question that you ask.
The second question I doubt that too only because you have time and in the darkness after death if you are still conscience you might have one more chance to call out and accept.
There's an excellent example of some one that this happened to, that was an atheist turned minister because of that experience.

You know a zombie minister?

 

[Paulhoff]

It only became clear to me when I accepted Jesus.
I thought exactly as you do now when I was a wild atheist.

Wild atheist, you are funny.

Which Jesus do you accepted, yours, your neighbor's, the guy down the street etc. You don't know any Jesus, it is only the one you have made up and it is just what you want him to be. To bad the real world doesn't work like that.

Paul

 

[edge]

What exactly is your definition of truly evil? Does coveting my neighbor's property make me truly evil? Does hearing the Gospel and rejecting it make me truly evil?



Yes, Thomas did get that proof (according to the stories). Will we be able to talk to the resurrected Jesus and put our fingers in the holes in His hands? Is that the kind of evidence you are talking about? If not then the analogy might need to be rewritten.

That was then and now evidence has been modernized slightly into what we in current time or times future tense might accept.

Truly evil; I would say murder of many souls/people taking someone out before their time, before Gods' plan for that soul is fulfilled.
Theft of certain kinds, like from the elderly who may have been blessed to maintain their lives in infirmity.
Televangelists who are frauds in the name of Christ for personal gain by lying about what they can do like instant healings when those people who are healed actually work for those evangelists.
And oh boy…. are they in trouble.
I believe there are certain degrees of sin, coveting being a lesser sin, adultery may be a degree higher on the list and I say this because there might be a raking in the next life.
There seems to be an indication of this for sure.

 

[edge]

Once again, we come to the very heart of all your threads: what counts as evidence. Examples of very impressive evidence: seeing a person who has been dead three days rise up and talk to me, manna falling from heaven, stopping the Earth's rotation and starting it up again. Examples of useless evidence: having a feeling of serenity, having a headache go away, hearing stories of how God cured someone's cancer, seeing a white light as my brain is deprived of oxygen, hearing stories of how other people saw a white light as their brains were deprived of oxygen.

Clinically dead according to all of the devises for a duration of time that exceeds the norm that means brain dead and body.
Way past, the white light phenomenon, into a judgment of ones soul.
Time for the moring walk with Odie, be back.

 

[edge]

I doubt it for the second question that you ask.
The third question I doubt that too only because you have time and in the darkness after death if you are still conscience you might have one more chance to call out and accept.
There's an excellent example of some one that this happened to, that was an atheist turned minister because of that experience.

I fixed this for you bikerdruid
the first question I answered today above. Sorry.
I've been very tired.

 

[edge]

Wild atheist, you are funny.

Which Jesus do you accepted, yours, your neighbor's, the guy down the street etc. You don't know any Jesus, it is only the one you have made up and it is just what you want him to be. To bad the real world doesn't work like that.

Paul

Why is that so funny?
I still have fun though only I am very much more careful not to cross certain lines, for instance, I still have a drink once in a while but now in moderation and not drunkenness.
Much more fun can be had that way with out side effects.
Like that... and it is true, more fun and way more witty.

We are all in agreement with Jesus so I see no problem.

 

[edge]

You know a zombie minister?

Yep it's you!
Like Osama on Crack!

 

[edge]

They found him!

In Atlanta on the pipe!

 

[Ladewig]

Clinically dead according to all of the devises for a duration of time that exceeds the norm that means brain dead and body.
Way past, the white light phenomenon, into a judgment of ones soul.

Once again, we come to the very heart of all your threads: what counts as evidence.

In trying to convince us of God's existence, one cannot say: sometimes people die and see their souls being judged and come back to life and testify as to the existence of God. That is not evidence of God. That is merely evidence of what happens when people's brains are deprived of oxygen.

Let's look at it another way. What if I found someone who clinically died and came back and he said that there is no God and no afterlife. Can I use that as evidence to convince you that God does not exist? If not, why should your evidence be allowed while mine is not? They are equivalent.

 

[Ladewig]

That was then and now evidence has been modernized slightly into what we in current time or times future tense might accept.

What are you talking about? Seeing someone who has been dead three days rise up and talk to us was evidence then and is evidence now. Why is it inappropriate or unreasonable to ask for the same type of evidence that God has supplied on previous occasions?

 

[Sun Countess]

That was then and now evidence has been modernized slightly into what we in current time or times future tense might accept.

And yet people are still trying to find morality in an ancient book which allowed for evils of slavery, genocide, and rape, and didn't allow for mundanities such as mixed fibers and the consumption of shellfish.

I believe there are certain degrees of sin, coveting being a lesser sin, adultery may be a degree higher on the list and I say this because there might be a raking in the next life.
There seems to be an indication of this for sure.

Where is there an indication that there may be a "raking in the next life" for people who commit adultery? There's no indication that an afterlife exists, and certainly no indication of what types of punishments people receive.

Clinically dead according to all of the devises for a duration of time that exceeds the norm that means brain dead and body.

So he was never really dead. If he was brain dead, he'd be dead dead. You can still be alive when other functions shut down, but if his brain was still functioning, he could see (and remember) whatever it is that he claimed to see.

We are all in agreement with Jesus so I see no problem.

I see now that you're talking about all Christians, I guess being in agreement that they're all filthy disgusting sinners who need Jesus's human sacrifice to save them from his self-daddy's punishment. Christians are certainly not in agreement when answering the question WWJD. You think he would be okay with your fornicating and drinking in moderation. Others think he wouldn't be accepting of any of those failings. Some think he's okay with being gay and others think he'd be the one to throw the first stone at the most morally repugnant of all - the homosexuals.

 

[Paulhoff]

Why is that so funny?
I still have fun though only I am very much more careful not to cross certain lines, for instance, I still have a drink once in a while but now in moderation and not drunkenness.
Much more fun can be had that way with out side effects.
Like that... and it is true, more fun and way more witty.

We are all in agreement with Jesus so I see no problem.

Because nothing in the meaning of the word "atheist" has to do with anything outside of not buying into other people misunderstanding of this universe, it is not a life style.

And I can not be in any agreement with someone that wasn't.


Paul

 

[edge]

Once again, we come to the very heart of all your threads: what counts as evidence.

You said it below:

Seeing someone who has been dead three days rise up and talk to us was evidence then and is evidence now.
One day… the most important will be personal evidence given directly to you.

In trying to convince us of God's existence, one cannot say: sometimes people die and see their souls being judged and come back to life and testify as to the existence of God. That is not evidence of God. That is merely evidence of what happens when people's brains are deprived of oxygen.

No one in a hospital is deprived of oxygen till they are pronounced dead;
Brain dead and organ death, and then they take them off of repertory equipment. This is when the time of death starts its count.
Then they might be in that position for the time they are gone deprived of oxygen.
Most of them are out of their bodys before that tunnel appears also.
What they describe comes long after the tunnel with the light, it is what happens later, that they are describing as a spiritual uniting with God and other loved ones.

Let's look at it another way. What if I found someone who clinically died and came back and he said that there is no God and no afterlife. Can I use that as evidence to convince you that God does not exist? If not, why should your evidence be allowed while mine is not? They are equivalent.

That happens some of the time and I have experienced that, nothing but darkness.
But what happened to me was not a long enough duration to experience the rest of what was to come just in that particular incident at least that time.
If that was my only experience then I might say that there isn’t anything there in the after life.
I wasn’t gone long enough to experience the rest of what happens next.



Originally Posted by edge

That was then and now evidence has been modernized slightly into what we in current time or times future tense might accept.

What are you talking about? Seeing someone who has been dead three days rise up and talk to us was evidence then and is evidence now. Why is it inappropriate or unreasonable to ask for the same type of evidence that God has supplied on previous occasions?

If a person was dead for longer than three days and then rose from the dead that would be in conflict with what Jesus went through and we are not perfected in the way he was which could give that person a option of corruption of his/her position.
I don’t know if you’ll follow my line of thought?

Lets say that Charley Manson died in prison, then was laid in the morgue for three days, what would his status be like when he came back then knowing what the repercussions meant for him, how could he use that?
How would or could he use that? His status would rise when it should not.

I believe that these experiences are mini resurrections as when it happened all over the Jerusalem area when Christ died and was raised.
But that did not make these people greater than Christ or equal to Christ.
I hope this is clear.
If like you… you are predisposed to denying miracles and the supernatural then you will deny everything else that is good in the Bible and what God meant it to be for us all.

 

[edge]

.

And yet people are still trying to find morality in an ancient book which allowed for evils of slavery, genocide, and rape, and didn't allow for mundanities such as mixed fibers and the consumption of shellfish.

Jesus didn’t come to change the culture totally but came to us to allow us grace.
He made it very clear that the lowest of slaves those that are last on the list will be ranked in heaven first or high and a king would be washing the feet of the slave that he had whipped and beaten.

Where is there an indication that there may be a "raking in the next life" for people who commit adultery? There's no indication that an afterlife exists, and certainly no indication of what types of punishments people receive.

I don’t know.

So he was never really dead. If he was brain dead, he'd be dead dead. You can still be alive when other functions shut down, but if his brain was still functioning, he could see (and remember) whatever it is that he claimed to see.

Except for the fact that…. that person was totally dead and placed in a morgue.

I see now that you're talking about all Christians, I guess being in agreement that they're all filthy disgusting sinners who need Jesus's human sacrifice to save them from his self-daddy's punishment. Christians are certainly not in agreement when answering the question WWJD. You think he would be okay with your fornicating and drinking in moderation. Others think he wouldn't be accepting of any of those failings. Some think he's okay with being gay and others think he'd be the one to throw the first stone at the most morally repugnant of all - the homosexuals.

All people who come to Christ are not all that filthy and there’s an example of that, when Jesus washes the feet of the disciples, “when peter asks why wash just my feet lord why not my hands or face?
The answer is why would you wash something that is already clean?
Most aren’t that dirty.
He also explains that a leader must also be a servant for the second or third time he explains this and then says you don’t understand this now but later you will.

 

[Elizabeth I]

No one in a hospital is deprived of oxygen till they are pronounced dead; Brain dead and organ death, and then they take them off of repertory equipment. This is when the time of death starts its count. Then they might be in that position for the time they are gone deprived of oxygen.

Does your ignorance truly know no bounds? Even if people are given oxygen, their lungs might not be strong. They might be clogged with fluid, as with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Their lungs might be working fine but their hearts beating weakly, and thus the blood is not delivering oxygen efficiently. There are many ways for the brain to be deprived of oxygen, and at least one of them is usually in force at the end of life.

What are you talking about? Seeing someone who has been dead three days rise up and talk to us was evidence then and is evidence now.

But none of us has seen someone dead for three days rise up and walk, talk, or eat sushi. We have only read about it in a 2,000-year old book. I can read any number of things in any number of books; that doesn't make even one of them true.

If a person was dead for longer than three days and then rose from the dead that would be in conflict with what Jesus went through and we are not perfected in the way he was which could give that person a option of corruption of his/her position.
I don’t know if you’ll follow my line of thought?

Hardly anyone has been able to follow your alleged line of thought up until now - why would you hope things would be any different with this post?

I believe that these experiences are mini resurrections as when it happened all over the Jerusalem area when Christ died and was raised.

Would you like to explain why there is no independent report of this occurrence? It is not reported anywhere outside the Bible (and you would think something like that would cause a lot of talk, if nothing else), and in the Bible it's reported in only one book. With the dead rising all over Jerusalem, wouldn't all the apostles and disciples and Mrs. XYZ next door be in an uproar?

 

[Sun Countess]

.
Jesus didn’t come to change the culture totally but came to us to allow us grace.
He made it very clear that the lowest of slaves those that are last on the list will be ranked in heaven first or high and a king would be washing the feet of the slave that he had whipped and beaten.

So he figured since it would all come out in the wash, he wouldn't stop anybody from owning or beating their slaves, got it. Why actually go out of your way to help real people in real need, when you can just say, "Oh god will take care of them at some point. The poor and sick are so blessed by god!!" Do you ever think through the moral failings of your religion? If a religion were good or true, it wouldn't need so many apologists.

I don’t know.

Just a note that this was in response to me asking you to clarify something you asserted: "There's indications that adulterers will get a raking in heaven (paraphrased)." It's okay for you to think something so ridiculous is true, but if you're going to say there's an indication of something, expect to be asked for evidence of any indications.

Except for the fact that…. that person was totally dead and placed in a morgue.

Except he wasn't. People thought he was. It doesn't happen often but it does happen that non-dead people are pronounced dead and placed in morgues. If they come out alive, then they were never actually dead.

All people who come to Christ are not all that filthy and there’s an example of that, when Jesus washes the feet of the disciples, “when peter asks why wash just my feet lord why not my hands or face?

When I say filthy sinners, I'm not talking about hygiene. The whole basic premise of Christianity is that all fall short of the glory of God, and they need a savior to wash away their sins. All are sinners, and a coveter is equally sinful as an adulterer or a mass murderer. If you have even one negative thought, that's the same as murder. If you look at someone with lust, you've committed adultery. Only through the grace of god can anybody get to heaven. The first step is admitting that you're a sinner, worthy only of death or hell, and only through god's grace (and your acceptance of a human sacrifice) can you make it to heaven.

The answer is why would you wash something that is already clean?
Most aren’t that dirty.

Are you saying that most Christians are already sin-free? From my understanding, if you're free of sin, you get to go to heaven without accepting the human sacrifice.

He also explains that a leader must also be a servant for the second or third time he explains this and then says you don’t understand this now but later you will.

Of course. This will all make sense later, and the churches can take all the money they want and never have to fulfill any promises to the people, because it will all make sense after everyone's dead. I'm honestly surprised that nobody has thought to sell automobiles or houses "for when you get to heaven." Just give me $10,000 and this car will be waiting for you at the pearly gates. Sadly, there are people who would fall for that.

 

[bikerdruid]

Seeing someone who has been dead three days rise up and talk to us was evidence then and is evidence now.

there is no evidence of this in either time frame.
what now?