The bible condones slavery

This seems to be a well written article from the Christian perspective that explains some of the rationale. I'm not familiar with the history of the area during biblical times to say whether this is accurate nor do I necessarily agree with everything, but at least it has some interesting biblical points to debate that seem contradictory.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1587
They equate slavery to being a prisoner when you've committed a crime. Then it asked, "When is it proper for a person or group of people to be made slaves?" and answered it "When God says so." Funny how people who want to own slaves say that God says they can have them.

No, a book that thinks it needs to tell you that wearing clothes of mixed fibers is a sin and picking up sticks on one particular day of the week is a sin should be able to let us know that owning another person isn't right, don't you think?

Link didn't work for me.

Why does it matter what the Roman laws pertaining to slavery were?

Maybe it will put this into some kind of perspective regardless of personal belief. Marduk could probably do a better job in describing what society was like back then, I've yet to read the material I want to research regarding the surrounding tribes in the area. I'll have to wait to delve into this issue until I get a better understanding of who lived where, when, and how.
It doesn't matter what society was like back then, does it? Christian fundies want morality to be objective and their Bible to be the source of it. We (most thinking and feeling people anyway) see slavery as morally reprehensible. The Bible sees slavery as an accepted fact of life and saw no need to proscribe it. In fact, God commands it at times. Does that sound like a source of morality to you?
 
I often hear "things were different back then" as some sort of explanation. God should have known slavery is horrible and should have said so....he didnt and according to the bible its fine and dandy to buy and own slaves and to take them as war booty.

Either slavery is immoral and therefore the bible is wrong or were just doing it wrong and we should be taking slaves
 
The laws regarding slavery are a result of the culture which affects the perception of the ones who supposedly speak for "God" or wrote the books of the bible. If you look at both the old testament and new testament our whole relationship with God is perceived as one of servitude or slavery.

He lost me when he said those slaves were evil murderers and they were lucky they were just being beaten with the rod. They were even nice enough not to put their eyes out....in order to rationalize wrong, it's easier to make the victim or enemy into monsters to justify your own actions....I'm just saying.
 
I often hear "things were different back then" as some sort of explanation. God should have known slavery is horrible and should have said so....he didnt and according to the bible its fine and dandy to buy and own slaves and to take them as war booty.

Either slavery is immoral and therefore the bible is wrong or were just doing it wrong and we should be taking slaves
I don't really have a problem with the explanation, "things were different back then". It's true. Things were different back then. I don't hate my own country because they once allowed slavery.

But what I want to hear Christians admit is that because the world has changed so much, the Bible is no longer a suitable source for a moral code. Things have changed so much that the things that people used to take for granted (like slavery, child abuse, genocide, torture) no longer have a place in our society. So stop telling us that this book, which in various places advocates all of these things, is something modern humans should live by. It ain't.
 
This seems to be a well written article from the Christian perspective that explains some of the rationale. I'm not familiar with the history of the area during biblical times to say whether this is accurate nor do I necessarily agree with everything, but at least it has some interesting biblical points to debate that seem contradictory.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1587

The word "apologetic" sets off my alarm bells. Let's look at that text.
Through the millennia, some of the worst atrocities perpetrated on humans have been linked to the institution of slavery. Historically, slavery has not designated one particular ethnic group as its singular victim. The Hebrews were slaves to the Egyptians during the days of Moses.
Didn't happen.
Alexander the Great forced almost the entire inhabited world to cower and serve him.
Equivocation. Alexander didn't enslave the people he conquered. They had the same relation to their monarch as before under the Persian kings.
Truth be told, practically every nationality of people that exists today could point to a time in its past history when it fell victim to slavery.
As the second sentence, this is as clear as mud. Slavery is the status of an individual. Undoubtedly, of every nationality at least one individual has at a point in history been enslaved. However, the wording suggests that all nations have wholesale been enslaved, and that is definitely not true, that is a very rare occurrence.

He spends a lot of time on the Greek word doulos and cites from the reputed BAGD lexicon, which is exclusively geared to the NT and other early Christian writing. I don't have this lexicon and am not willing to shell out $160 for it. The way he quotes from it:
Arndt and Gingrich documented that the Greek word doulos meant “slave,” but that it also was used “in a wider sense” to denote “any kind of dependence.”
with only sentence fragments raises my eyebrows though. All other lexicons I've consulted - Thayer's and Liddell-Scott-Jones and my highschool dictionary - simply translate it as slave. The examples he offers of a "wider meaning" are all examples of metaphorical use, e.g., Paul calling himself the servant of Christ. The concrete passage he offers up as example (Romans 1:1) is exactly such a passage. Thus, his claim that doulos in its non-metaphorical sense would mean anything other than slave (or bondsman or bondservant, which are kinds of slavery) is entirely unconvincing.

His comparison of imprisonment with slavery is outright ludicrous:
However, those who take such a position fail to consider that certain types of slavery are not morally wrong. For instance, when a man is convicted of murder, he often is sentenced to life in prison. During his life sentence, he is forced by the State to do (or not do) certain things. He is justly confined to a small living space, and his freedoms are revoked. Sometimes, he is compelled by the State to work long hours, for which he does not receive even minimum wage. Would it be justifiable to label such a loss of freedom as a type of slavery? Yes, it would.
No, this fundamentally misses the mark. A slave is bound by another human being for no other reason than being born a slave. A prisoner is bound by the State, i.e., by society, because he transgressed the rules of that society. Those are two fundamentally different things. Moreover, his description of prison willfully includes aspects like long work hours which are forbidden by the UDHR and other documents defining human rights: those are not the norms we uphold or strive to in our modern society.

In the same line, a comment like
As appalling as it is to the sensitivities of most United States citizens, many countries still employ some type of beating or bodily harm to deter crime
serves nothing but to bring the message "those biblical slaves didn't have it so bad after all", but is besides the issue. Those are not our human rights norms and so you can't use it for comparison.

On the other hand, he does his best to play down slavery in biblical times. About slavery during OT times he says
Many of the injunctions found in the Old Testament pertaining to slavery fall into the category of regulating something that was “less than ideal.”
and the section discussing slavery in NT times has the heading "A Mutually Beneficial Relationship". The latter completely sidesteps the issue that a freeman also often had a client-patron relation with a (wealthy) patron which was mutually beneficial and did not have the bondage aspect of slavery.

All in all, the article is a dishonest piece and only serves to try to justify slavery, and I'm not even sure if I should add "slavery in biblical times". It's another data point validating my hypothesis that "apologetic" is merely a euphemism for "professional liar".
 
So this bible god, something that we are told, "Always Was" couldn't intervene before slavery got started?


It is USELESS. :mad:


Paul

:) :) :)
 
So this bible god, something that we are told, "Always Was" couldn't intervene before slavery got started?


It is USELESS. :mad:


Paul

:) :) :)

The bg always seems to lag behind human development.

ETA: Not that long ago churches upheld the divine right of kings, now we're assured that god loves democracy and in fact inspired the writers of the constitution of the USA.
 
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The bg always seems to lag behind human development.

ETA: Not that long ago churches upheld the divine right of kings, now we're assured that god loves democracy and in fact inspired the writers of the constitution of the USA.

This what a lot of bone-heads don't understand in the U.S.A. and that is about keeping any idea of a god, any god, out of government, that "THERE IS NO DIVINE RIGHT OF ANYONE or ANYSTATE".

Paul

:) :) :)
 
I don't really have a problem with the explanation, "things were different back then". It's true. Things were different back then. I don't hate my own country because they once allowed slavery.

But what I want to hear Christians admit is that because the world has changed so much, the Bible is no longer a suitable source for a moral code. Things have changed so much that the things that people used to take for granted (like slavery, child abuse, genocide, torture) no longer have a place in our society. So stop telling us that this book, which in various places advocates all of these things, is something modern humans should live by. It ain't.

Exactly. That argument is open to an anthropologist, but not to a Christian who believes the Bible is a divinely-inspired moral code.
 
Sports ain't work. Sports is recreational. (there you go athletes, your get-out-of-death free card)


Not when you're being paid to play. That makes it a job and thus work. Perhaps folks will get used to NFL football taking place on Saturday afternoons instead of Sunday...
 
Not when you're being paid to play. That makes it a job and thus work. Perhaps folks will get used to NFL football taking place on Saturday afternoons instead of Sunday...

Even if they weren't paid, it would still be considered work, since it isn't done in a church. At least so long as it's on a Sunday.

(Man, I hope nobody will actually use this after reading it)
 
Even if they weren't paid, it would still be considered work, since it isn't done in a church. At least so long as it's on a Sunday.

(Man, I hope nobody will actually use this after reading it)

...or watch Chariots of Fire.
 
Even if they weren't paid, it would still be considered work, since it isn't done in a church. At least so long as it's on a Sunday.

(Man, I hope nobody will actually use this after reading it)
True, and some colleges, notabley Brigham Young, have refused to play sports on Sunday. It's caused some jolly old scheduling problems and, as I recall, made them pass up one lucrative bowl game.
 
DDT, the fact is that every country I could find information for has had legal (de facto or de jure) slavery at some point. So the institution is globally recognized in our history.

Thanks for that addition. It doesn't surprise me at all.

I'd like to second Tricky's comments. My own country also instituted slavery (in Suriname and the Netherlands Antilles - abolished 1863) and profited heavily from the transatlantic slave trade.

So, in each country in history slaves have been held. I think it's also a very safe bet to say that individuals from every country have been held as slaves. What got my goat was two sentences right in the opening paragraph of that apologetic pile of crap. I'll quote the whole passage for context with the two sentences highlighted:
Through the millennia, some of the worst atrocities perpetrated on humans have been linked to the institution of slavery. Historically, slavery has not designated one particular ethnic group as its singular victim. The Hebrews were slaves to the Egyptians during the days of Moses. During the reign of King David, the Moabites were subjected to slavery (2 Samuel 8:2). Alexander the Great forced almost the entire inhabited world to cower and serve him. Truth be told, practically every nationality of people that exists today could point to a time in its past history when it fell victim to slavery. Hitting closer to home, the pages of history dealing with the formative years of the United States are despoiled with gruesome stories of ships carrying slaves sold to the Americas by their fellow Africans (and others, e.g., Arabians).
It's not quite clear to me what the author actually means with these two phrases.

The first I interpret as "of every nationality in history, one or more members have been enslaved", which is an enormous platitude. However, the phrasing "designate a nationality" also carries the suggestion of a whole people being enslaved - e.g., after a war, as is depicted in several Biblical accounts. But the occurrences that such actually happened with a whole nationality are very rare.

The second phrase carries that suggestion even more. The interpretation I gave to the first seems nonsensical here. Dutch, English, American and other sailors have occasionally been enslaved by Barbary pirates, for instance, but would you really say that these nationalities "fell victim to slavery"? That wording doesn't make sense to me, it's far too dramatic. So here I'd say he actually means a whole people being enslaved, but then the "every" is a bald-faced lie.

I hope there are native English speakers who want to chime in.
 
Not when you're being paid to play. That makes it a job and thus work. Perhaps folks will get used to NFL football taking place on Saturday afternoons instead of Sunday...

The Bible says you need to be killed for working on the Sabbath. The Bible also says the Sabbath is Saturday and nowhere does it give Christians permission to move it to Sunday.
 
But why is Saturn's Day holy to the Hebrew god?

Let's say the Hebrew god really did care about not choosing a day of the week that would be named after a pagan god or other object of worship in a language that wouldn't be invented for a thousand years or so, which day of the week could he have chosen?
 

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