Cont: The behaviour of US police officers - part 2

[bruto]

The officer himself is also brown... but geez I'm skeptical. When that type of accident happens IMO its one of lack of basic knowledge, drugs/alcohol, you weren't actually cleaning it but were showing off.

Did it happen in his apartment or at a gun range? Or out on the street? Forensics can likely tell if it was fired once or twice.

Mind you I'm only guessing here but I'm guessing a single shot because it's not that hard to imagine the boundless stupidity and carelessness it would entail, while it's harder to imagine a cop shooting himself when a simple flat-out lie would probably have worked as well.

 

[jimbob]

Impossible to prove of course, but I consider it likely that the self-inflicted hand would occurred after he shot the brown guy.

As a former member of the US military... Do you have an idea what sort of penalty one would expect for a negligent discharge that killed a bystander? US cops seems to pretend that they are in a war so should be held to at least the standards of the US military.

 

[ponderingturtle]

As a former member of the US military... Do you have an idea what sort of penalty one would expect for a negligent discharge that killed a bystander? US cops seems to pretend that they are in a war so should be held to at least the standards of the US military.

I don't know in the US civilian world how often do regular people who kill someone in a gun accident get charged? I know no one was in an accidental shooting at a ny shooting range a few years ago.

 

[lobosrul5]

I don't know in the US civilian world how often do regular people who kill someone in a gun accident get charged? I know no one was in an accidental shooting at a ny shooting range a few years ago.

I tried doing some research on that subject after the Alec Baldwin incident and I couldn't find hard numbers. But... it seemed to me, that the answer is pretty damned rarely. In fact I could only find a couple of stories where charges had been filed.

 

[Checkmite]

Kenneth Vinyard, 48, was killed after he and his fiance witnessed a shooting in a Pennsylvania Walmart parking lot over the weekend.

The exact circumstances of the shooting itself are unclear, aside from that Vinyard and his fiance initially weren't involved and did not know the victim. Nevertheless, Vinyard had quickly begun to administer first aid to the man who had been shot, when a second unidentified man approached, who ordered Vinyard to "step back", and then shoved Vinyard so hard that he fell and struck his head on the concrete, sustaining trauma serious enough that his fiance had to begin chest compressions as he had no pulse.

At the scene, after fatally injuring Vinyard, the man identified himself to Vinyard's fiance as a plainclothes Center Township police officer. Vinyard was later pronounced dead at the hospital. The state police are investigating but aren't releasing any details about the incident. An attorney for Vinyard's family is demanding the officer involved be criminally charged.

 

[Nessie]

In this graphic footage, a cop shoots a male attacking a female with a knife. My questions are about the shots fired. The cop has a handgun, he fires the first shot when the male is still on top of the female and he then fires about 15 times into the male, who is still moving.

How is that possible, to fire so many times, at close range and not instantly kill?

Why keep on firing, when the police's job is to arrest, not summarily execute?

https://twitter.com/720threat/status/1590172352297709569

 

[Skeptic Tank]

How is that possible, to fire so many times, at close range and not instantly kill?

Because it's a 9mm and the assailant may have been on drugs or just the locations they hit, some combination of the above. This is part of why police are trained to keep firing until the threat ends.

Why keep on firing, when the police's job is to arrest, not summarily execute?

Because, as stated above, they are trained to keep firing until the threat ends. If someone has a gun or a knife and is presenting as a threat to the officer or to other civilians, their training dictates that the threat must be stopped. If the person drops the weapon when ordered to, then there is an opportunity to arrest them. If they continue to attack or approach another with the weapon, indicating an ongoing intent to harm, then training dictates that rounds continue to be put into that target until the threat is neutralized.

I think it's a fairly logical protocol. Here's a good example of why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STspPota7es&t=1m55s

 

[Nessie]

Because it's a 9mm and the assailant may have been on drugs or just the locations they hit, some combination of the above. This is part of why police are trained to keep firing until the threat ends.



Because, as stated above, they are trained to keep firing until the threat ends. If someone has a gun or a knife and is presenting as a threat to the officer or to other civilians, their training dictates that the threat must be stopped. If the person drops the weapon when ordered to, then there is an opportunity to arrest them. If they continue to attack or approach another with the weapon, indicating an ongoing intent to harm, then training dictates that rounds continue to be put into that target until the threat is neutralized.

I think it's a fairly logical protocol. Here's a good example of why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STspPota7es&t=1m55s

I did not realise handguns were so ineffective, though it is not clear if that is due to accuracy and the cops are missing a lot, or the body can survive more bullets than I believed.

It is an old statistic, but the German police fired 85 bullets in 2011, killing 6. The two videos show the US police firing about 20. Is there something the German police are doing, that the US police do not?

Also, in the second video the male continues to move forward and attack, in the first video the male immediately rolls off the female and lies on his back, releasing the knife. At what point is an attack considered ended, as at the moment it looks like only once the attacker is dead.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

It is an old statistic, but the German police fired 85 bullets in 2011, killing 6. The two videos show the US police firing about 20. Is there something the German police are doing, that the US police do not?

Probably different training regiments, possibly different weaponry / caliber, different standards of what sorts of situations necessitate firearm use, different tactics re: unload magazine into target or not, etc.

Oh and superior German blood. J/k

In all seriousness, yes most times if you pop someone once they will go down. Most times. US police officers deal with a lot of situations by comparison, and they will see more of the weird scenarios where the person keeps coming.

Also, in the second video the male continues to move forward and attack, in the first video the male immediately rolls off the female and lies on his back, releasing the knife. At what point is an attack considered ended, as at the moment it looks like only once the attacker is dead.

In the first video, he rolls off her but still has the knife until much later. He only finally drops it as he's expiring. Quite a while after the last bullet is fired. Prior to him dropping it, there's a period of time where the attacker and victim are near one another on the ground, and the victim isn't the only one who could be in danger while the knife remains in the guy's hand.

I'm not really worried about whether it was overkill or 100% necessary. I'm glad the cop did what he did. It was satisfying to watch, and it was deserved.

 

[Nessie]

Probably different training regiments, possibly different weaponry / caliber, different standards of what sorts of situations necessitate firearm use, different tactics re: unload magazine into target or not, etc.

Oh and superior German blood. J/k

Would it not be good idea to find out why the difference and for the US to adopt German police tactics? The more people the US police arrest and put to court, rather than shoot dead in a blaze of bullets, the more respect people will have for them.

In all seriousness, yes most times if you pop someone once they will go down. Most times. US police officers deal with a lot of situations by comparison, and they will see more of the weird scenarios where the person keeps coming.



In the first video, he rolls off her but still has the knife until much later. He only finally drops it as he's expiring. Quite a while after the last bullet is fired. Prior to him dropping it, there's a period of time where the attacker and victim are near one another on the ground, and the victim isn't the only one who could be in danger while the knife remains in the guy's hand.

I'm not really worried about whether it was overkill or 100% necessary. I'm glad the cop did what he did. It was satisfying to watch, and it was deserved.

Maybe that last sentence explains the difference. You think respect for the US police comes from their willingness to summarily execute criminals in a blaze of bullets.

 

[Thermal]

In this graphic footage, a cop shoots a male attacking a female with a knife. My questions are about the shots fired. The cop has a handgun, he fires the first shot when the male is still on top of the female and he then fires about 15 times into the male, who is still moving.

How is that possible, to fire so many times, at close range and not instantly kill?

Why keep on firing, when the police's job is to arrest, not summarily execute?

https://twitter.com/720threat/status/1590172352297709569

That was really weird. The cop stops the car pretty far away, although he knows it is game on. His partner stays at the car the whole time.

Knife boy walks over and lays on the woman after the cop runs up, gun drawn. Another man is standing right over the prone woman's head, and not helping. I assume he is another assailant. No one bothers with him and he walks off.

The cop fires at knife boy while he is laying on the victim. There is no threat to the cop; the only threat is to the victim...that the cop is now firing at, point blank.

Wouldn't the move been for both cops to pull closer and one cop go for the hand holding the knife, and the other have gun out to cover/keep the other guy at bay?

 

[jimbob]

Would it not be good idea to find out why the difference and for the US to adopt German police tactics? The more people the US police arrest and put to court, rather than shoot dead in a blaze of bullets, the more respect people will have for them.



Maybe that last sentence explains the difference. You think respect for the US police comes from their willingness to summarily execute those the police officer has decided arecriminals in a blaze of bullets.

Minor but important correction

 

[Disbelief]

That was really weird. The cop stops the car pretty far away, although he knows it is game on. His partner stays at the car the whole time.

Knife boy walks over and lays on the woman after the cop runs up, gun drawn. Another man is standing right over the prone woman's head, and not helping. I assume he is another assailant. No one bothers with him and he walks off.

The cop fires at knife boy while he is laying on the victim. There is no threat to the cop; the only threat is to the victim...that the cop is now firing at, point blank.

Wouldn't the move been for both cops to pull closer and one cop go for the hand holding the knife, and the other have gun out to cover/keep the other guy at bay?

Have you lost your mind? What if knife boy was really Bullseye? He might have turned and thrown the knife to slice the jugular of both cops, until the knife returns to him. Better to continue shooting a downed suspect and probably should have reloaded to be extra safe.

 

[lobosrul5]

That was really weird. The cop stops the car pretty far away, although he knows it is game on. His partner stays at the car the whole time.

Knife boy walks over and lays on the woman after the cop runs up, gun drawn. Another man is standing right over the prone woman's head, and not helping. I assume he is another assailant. No one bothers with him and he walks off.

The cop fires at knife boy while he is laying on the victim. There is no threat to the cop; the only threat is to the victim...that the cop is now firing at, point blank.

Wouldn't the move been for both cops to pull closer and one cop go for the hand holding the knife, and the other have gun out to cover/keep the other guy at bay?

Yeah I dunno, maybe he kept shooting a bit longer than he needed to, but when there's an actual clear and real and immediate danger to a member of the public... I'm gonna kinda just shrug my shoulders. Perhaps they can review and figure out if a different set of actions were more appropriate.

 

[Thermal]

Have you lost your mind? What if knife boy was really Bullseye? He might have turned and thrown the knife to slice the jugular of both cops, until the knife returns to him.

Ah, the Yondu Protocol. forgot about that.

Better to continue shooting a downed suspect and probably should have reloaded to be extra safe.

He literally did. The cop emptied his mag (see the slide locked back when he runs out of bullets) and dropped a fresh mag in and chambers up, ready to keep firing at the prone piece of Swiss cheese at his feet.

The cop does call him "sir" when he screams to drop the knife. So he gets Miss Manners points, there. Probably should have held his pinky out when shooting for best form, though.

 

[Thermal]

Yeah I dunno, maybe he kept shooting a bit longer than he needed to, but when there's an actual clear and real and immediate danger to a member of the public... I'm gonna kinda just shrug my shoulders. Perhaps they can review and figure out if a different set of actions were more appropriate.

Yeah, that's who he was firing at, from what, 3 or 4 feet? It's a flipping miracle she wasn't hit from a round exiting from a 9 at that range.

 

[Nessie]

Minor but important correction

I was considering that the video evidence shows that the male with the knife, lying on top of the screaming female, was definitely a criminal, so in this instance, the cops instincts were correct!

 

[Disbelief]

Ah, the Yondu Protocol. forgot about that.

Critical for today's police force, they're under siege daily.

He literally did. The cop emptied his mag (see the slide locked back when he runs out of bullets) and dropped a fresh mag in and chambers up, ready to keep firing at the prone piece of Swiss cheese at his feet.

The cop does call him "sir" when he screams to drop the knife. So he gets Miss Manners points, there. Probably should have held his pinky out when shooting for best form, though.

Missed that part, I stopped watching after several shots. Good to know he was prepared in case he had another knife.

 

[Trebuchet]

Don't ever be like these cops.
But do note that the guy would be dead if he hadn't been white. The officer has no doubt been punished already for not filling him full of holes when he reached behind him.

 

[shemp]

Yeah, when he reached for his back pocket I expected him to end up looking like a Swiss cheese. His skin color saved him. A Black man who did that would have been dead in seconds.