Cont: The behaviour of US police officers - part 2

[Skeptic Tank]

Bodycam out of the LAPD snuffing out that 14 year old girl. It's as bad you might imagine. A cop with a rifle is champing at the bit to kill the suspect and wastes no time opening fire. Rifle rounds penetrated the interior walls, killing the bystander.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjcdanUhmSY&feature=youtu.be

The man was armed with a cable bike lock, the victim of his attack was already crawling away and largely out of danger by the time the cop with the rifle opened fire.

The body cam has just been shown on Sky News in the UK. The cop with the rifle pushes other cops out the way to get to the suspect, he is so desperate to fire his rifle. As you say, the suspect is no danger to anyone, there must be half a dozen cops there. It reminds me of the Daniel Shaver shooting, because the cop is clearly on a mission to use his gun.

Agreed.

It looks to me like there was no good reason this number of cops couldn't attempt subduing him in another way before employing firearms.

It's one thing if an innocent bystander were to be killed in a situation where the cop had no real choice but to open fire, but opening fire here looked totally unjustified by the circumstances.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Riker's island is such den of despair and deliberate sadism that at judge finds it an 8th amendment violation (no cruel or unusual punishment)

A New York state judge ordered a pretrial inmate at New York City's beleaguered Rikers Jail to be released last week after finding that the incarcerated man's "credible testimony and overwhelming supporting video evidence" of squalid conditions, pervasive violence, and indifference from jailers violated the Constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment.

The plaintiff, identified only as "Relator G" in court documents, was being held in Rikers while awaiting trial on felony burglary charges. He claims he was held in an intake area without a bed or mattress for 11 days, was fed only a single meal a day or sometimes not at all, and repeatedly attacked by other inmates. After he was finally moved to a real housing unit, he was forced by a gang leader on his cell block to participate in a "fight night" while correctional officers watched on.

https://reason.com/2021/12/28/video-of-fight-night-at-rikers-jail-leads-judge-to-find-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/

 

[Suddenly]

Riker's island is such den of despair and deliberate sadism that at judge finds it an 8th amendment violation (no cruel or unusual punishment)



https://reason.com/2021/12/28/video-of-fight-night-at-rikers-jail-leads-judge-to-find-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/

I mean, this guy was awaiting trial. It says a lot that "cruel and unusual" standards are being applied to someone supposedly not even being punished but being held pending trial.

You would think we'd have an even higher standard for that so that it wasn't lumped in with "punishment," but so it goes for those not able to afford bond.

"Sentence first -- Verdict afterwards"

 

[JoeMorgue]

I mean, this guy was awaiting trial. It says a lot that "cruel and unusual" standards are being applied to someone supposedly not even being punished but being held pending trial.

You would think we'd have an even higher standard for that so that it wasn't lumped in with "punishment," but so it goes for those not able to afford bond.

"Sentence first -- Verdict afterwards"

Okay but you're being very unfair here by not dutifully acknowledging and accounting for the magical ability that some people have to "just know" when someone is guilty. I mean its "obvious" he's a "bad apple" who "played stupid games" and "won stupid prizes."

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I mean, this guy was awaiting trial. It says a lot that "cruel and unusual" standards are being applied to someone supposedly not even being punished but being held pending trial.

You would think we'd have an even higher standard for that so that it wasn't lumped in with "punishment," but so it goes for those not able to afford bond.

"Sentence first -- Verdict afterwards"

Worse yet that one of the country's most notorious prisons is actually a jail, so it's just pretrial detention and people serving less than 1 year sentences.

The people being subjected to the horrid abuse of this notorious facility are either people who have not been found guilty or are serving time for rather petty offences.

 

[Aridas]

I mean, this guy was awaiting trial. It says a lot that "cruel and unusual" standards are being applied to someone supposedly not even being punished but being held pending trial.

You would think we'd have an even higher standard for that so that it wasn't lumped in with "punishment," but so it goes for those not able to afford bond.

"Sentence first -- Verdict afterwards"

Just to poke at this, there are also serious issues with many immigrant detention facilities. They're not being put there because of even potential criminal action and the treatment is all too frequently rather inhumane, to be kind to the facilities.

 

[JoeMorgue]

What I see is a bunch of limp wristed librul beta cucks who want my precious tax dollars to go to giving no-good thugs and illegals steak and lobster for dinner every night and color TVs.

(Seriously the "Color TVs" thing still to this day sets relatives of mine of. Like seriously where are they supposed to find black and white TVs...)

 

[Armitage72]

Back when Paizo Publishing was publishing the official magazines for Dungeons & Dragons, they ran an editorial about how some prisons refused to deliver their magazines and/or banned the game entirely because the game "promotes gambling" (uses dice) and the magazines "contain maps" (of fictional locations). A larger than expected number of readers responded with surprise and anger that the company cared about people in prison, saying that they're there to be punished and shouldn't be allowed any entertainment of any kind.
Obviously, if people want cushy luxuries like beds and regular meals, then they shouldn't get arrested. They're not there to be coddled.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Obviously the 14 year old who got gunned down by the reckless LAPD is the lede, but it's worth pointing out that the shooting death of the suspect itself is extremely sketchy. The man was armed with a bike lock, his victim was no longer in immediate danger, and the officer was far enough away to have plenty of options. The cop opened fire without warning or any attempt at nonlethal intervention, despite having several other officers on hand to assist.

No attempt to deescalate, no attempt to bring the suspect in alive, just run in and open fire with a rifle.

When the inevitable ass covering by the LAPD gets into full swing, I would expect that they are just going to beg the question that a lethal response was appropriate. One might wonder why a professional law enforcement agency can't bring in a mentally disturbed man armed with a cable lock without racking up two fatalities.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Obviously the 14 year old who got gunned down by the reckless LAPD is the lede, but it's worth pointing out that the shooting death of the suspect itself is extremely sketchy. The man was armed with a bike lock, his victim was no longer in immediate danger, and the officer was far enough away to have plenty of options. The cop opened fire without warning or any attempt at nonlethal intervention, despite having several other officers on hand to assist.

No attempt to deescalate, no attempt to bring the suspect in alive, just run in and open fire with a rifle.

When the inevitable ass covering by the LAPD gets into full swing, I would expect that they are just going to beg the question that a lethal response was appropriate. One might wonder why a professional law enforcement agency can't bring in a mentally disturbed man armed with a cable lock without racking up two fatalities.

I'm wondering how much steam "I feared for my life (and no I don't have to fear for my life with any consistency, I can literally turn it on and off whenever I feel like it) so that's that... I SAID THAT'S THAT did you not hear me the first time" has in it.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Back when Paizo Publishing was publishing the official magazines for Dungeons & Dragons, they ran an editorial about how some prisons refused to deliver their magazines and/or banned the game entirely because the game "promotes gambling" (uses dice) and the magazines "contain maps" (of fictional locations). A larger than expected number of readers responded with surprise and anger that the company cared about people in prison, saying that they're there to be punished and shouldn't be allowed any entertainment of any kind.
Obviously, if people want cushy luxuries like beds and regular meals, then they shouldn't get arrested. They're not there to be coddled.

I once heard the rather cynical but not exactly unreasonable theory put forth that if we don't make prisons/jail/custody outright horrible it might start to be seen as a preferable alternative to how our lowest classes of citizens already live.

I mean it's rare one off cases but we've had people commit crimes just so they have a roof over their head and health care.

 

[Suddenly]

Worse yet that one of the country's most notorious prisons is actually a jail, so it's just pretrial detention and people serving less than 1 year sentences.

The people being subjected to the horrid abuse of this notorious facility are either people who have not been found guilty or are serving time for rather petty offences.

One of the tragic ironies about present day incarceration in the US is that it is more the rule than the exception that the jails are worse than the prisons.

Part of that, again ironically, is that litigation against prisons for overcrowding has been somewhat successful. Which has led to a backlog in jails so now people who have been convicted of felonies linger in the jails waiting to be transferred to a prison. Which leads to overcrowding of jails. The litigation for that for the most part has not been successful, both because during this time we have become a nation of sadistic punishment fetishists, and because the jail population is transient so any individual's case is likely to be moot by the time it gets anywhere. Plus there are more unstable people in jail because they aren't used to it, less mental health care, and quite a few withdrawing from various substances.

A lot of pleas are motivated in part by a wish to be more quickly transferred to a prison. I've never felt unsafe visiting a prison, at least once the novelty wore off. I've been caught up in a few violent incidents and once accidentally pepper sprayed in jails.

I do not recommend the pepper spray.

 

[lobosrul5]

I once heard the rather cynical but not exactly unreasonable theory put forth that if we don't make prisons/jail/custody outright horrible it might start to be seen as a preferable alternative to how our lowest classes of citizens already live.

I mean it's rare one off cases but we've had people commit crimes just so they have a roof over their head and health care.

Danish prisons look like this:
https://image.digitalinsightresearc...MI/Designcurial/Blueprint/BP2017/SPrison5.jpg

But for some reason they aren't crammed full lol

 

[shemp]

Danish prisons look like this:
https://image.digitalinsightresearc...MI/Designcurial/Blueprint/BP2017/SPrison5.jpg

But for some reason they aren't crammed full lol

That can't be a prison cell! There isn't feces all over the ceiling, walls and floor!

 

[Suddenly]

I once heard the rather cynical but not exactly unreasonable theory put forth that if we don't make prisons/jail/custody outright horrible it might start to be seen as a preferable alternative to how our lowest classes of citizens already live.

I mean it's rare one off cases but we've had people commit crimes just so they have a roof over their head and health care.

It happens. I've always argued that if they think prisons are cushy we can allow people to volunteer to do prison terms.

My fight has been mostly about education in prisons. Getting a college degree in prison reduces recidivism rates so much that it should be a no-brainer, but nobody ever reads an article that says "Joe Smith was not robbed and beaten in an alley last night because his assailant discovered a sense of self-worth by completing an associates degree while in prison for dealing drugs as a teen."

So mostly people complain this isn't fair and spend several times more than that on cops and jail because that's a more viscerally satisfying result.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Getting a college degree in prison reduces recidivism rates so much that it should be a no-brainer, but nobody ever reads an article that says "Joe Smith was not robbed and beaten in an alley last night because his assailant discovered a sense of self-worth by completing an associates degree while in prison for dealing drugs as a teen."

The fact that success is so much harder to quantify than failure is just one of the ways reality is functionally broken.

We'll never have numbers on the bad that doesn't happen because of the good we do. Which does suck.

 

[Armitage72]

I once heard the rather cynical but not exactly unreasonable theory put forth that if we don't make prisons/jail/custody outright horrible it might start to be seen as a preferable alternative to how our lowest classes of citizens already live.

I mean it's rare one off cases but we've had people commit crimes just so they have a roof over their head and health care.

It sounds like the arguments I've seen that homeless shelters encourage homelessness. If a homeless person knows that they have food and shelter available, then they have no incentive to stop being homeless.
Shelters are set up like 4-star resorts, right?

 

[Suddenly]

It sounds like the arguments I've seen that homeless shelters encourage homelessness. If a homeless person knows that they have food and shelter available, then they have no incentive to stop being homeless.
Shelters are set up like 4-star resorts, right?

I mean, they encourage in the sense that less homeless people die of exposure.

Which I suspect is what they really mean. The logic is sociopathic. Like if they see someone struggling not to drown I guess throw them a lead weight so they learn to be stronger swimmers.

 

[shemp]

It sounds like the arguments I've seen that homeless shelters encourage homelessness. If a homeless person knows that they have food and shelter available, then they have no incentive to stop being homeless.
Shelters are set up like 4-star resorts, right?

It's not going far enough to shut down shelters! They should let people starve on the streets and leave their bodies there until they rot, to make an example of them to others that homelessness is one's own fault and is an attack on good Christian members of society! This wouldn't happen if these filthmongers had a trust fund to fall back on like they should have!

 

[Suddenly]

It's not going far enough to shut down shelters! They should let people starve on the streets and leave their bodies there until they rot, to make an example of them to others that homelessness is one's own fault and is an attack on good Christian members of society! This wouldn't happen if these filthmongers had a trust fund to fall back on like they should have!

See, you probably think you are being absurd rather than accurate. Sadly you are mistaken.