Cont: The behaviour of US police officers - part 2

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SuburbanTurkey said:
Fifth Circuit Grants Qualified Immunity To Officers Who Tased Man Soaked in Gasoline, Knowing it Would Light Him on Fire



https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/evidenceprof/2021/06/the-qualified-immunity-doctrine-insulates-governmental-agents-from-liability-for-unconstitutional-acts-as-long-as-their-co.html
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Welcome to why people shouldn't get too excited about the Chauvin verdict. For every appropriate guilty verdict and sentence there are a dozen incidents wherein obviously criminal cops suffer no consequences worse than forced paid vacation.
 
Interestingly, the author of that article concludes that the Supreme Court is trending towards being stricter on qualified immunity claims and that this 5th Circuit decision is in opposition to that momentum.

https://texaslawreview.org/the-end-of-comparative-qualified-immunity/

This was an observation about the current SCOTUS, too... so this is including Barrett and Kavanagh.
 
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Off-duty, out of uniform cop chases down car full of teenagers, brandishes gun, shoots one, chases some more, and makes no attempt to arrest them nor provide any aid to the driver he shot.

In pain and bleeding, the teenagers drove a short distance away, pulled over, and got out of their car, Howe said. They saw Dolan drive up in his white pickup truck and get out, too. That time, Howe said, Dolan did not approach them or make any attempt to take any of the teens into custody. He did not acknowledge that the driver had been injured.

“It’s so clear he wasn’t stopping what he thought was a crime. He would have approached the person that he shot ... and either take them into custody and call an ambulance,” Howe said. “I’ve been a lawyer for 40 years. This is an intensely questionable story.”
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https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/06/24/metro/police-investigate-after-off-duty-pawtucket-ri-officer-shoots-teenager/

Officer remains on leave and has not been charged with any crime, nor have any of the three teens been charged with any crime that might explain why this maniac chased them down and opened fire.
 
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gnome said:
Interestingly, the author of that article concludes that the Supreme Court is trending towards being stricter on qualified immunity claims and that this 5th Circuit decision is in opposition to that momentum.

https://texaslawreview.org/the-end-of-comparative-qualified-immunity/

This was an observation about the current SCOTUS, too... so this is including Barrett and Kavanagh.
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My vague (yes high probability of being naïve, I know, let me have SOME hope) hope is that that is the plan and it will backfire. Force the issue up to the Supreme Court hoping that Trump's appointee's will rubberstamp a stereotypical conservative "Cops are good, apple pie is good, praise Jesus" ruling and... they won't.

SCOTUS actually ending qualified immunity as a concept is one of those wins even SuburbanTurkey will have to stop screeching "All is lost! All is lost!" over for at least a few seconds.

I mean it's not gonna happen, but it's a nice thought.
 
JoeMorgue said:
My vague (yes high probability of being naïve, I know, let me have SOME hope) hope is that that is the plan and it will backfire. Force the issue up to the Supreme Court hoping that Trump's appointee's will rubberstamp a stereotypical conservative "Cops are good, apple pie is good, praise Jesus" ruling and... they won't.

SCOTUS actually ending qualified immunity as a concept is one of those wins even SuburbanTurkey will have to stop screeching "All is lost! All is lost!" over for at least a few seconds.

I mean it's not gonna happen, but it's a nice thought.
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Change of qualified immunity would indeed be a huge step. It should be the courts that kill this thing. SCOTUS invented qualified immunity out of whole cloth in 1967, so it's only appropriate that they clean up their mess:

https://theappeal.org/the-lab/explainers/qualified-immunity-explained/



It should be said that civil lawsuits are really thin gruel when it comes to dealing with police violence. It would still be a huge double standard if cops can commit acts of criminal violence and would only be looking at civil, not criminal, sanctions. The real "just" solution would be criminal prosecution for examples of police brutality or other civil rights violations, but that is a huge ask where DAs have close relationships with the police and bootlicker politics reign supreme. There's some movement on that front, with the DOJ making a big show of investigating a few high profile cases of police brutality, but it's hard to imagine this standard will apply to more routine, low-profile examples of police criminal violence.

At least with civil lawsuits, the adversarial system of the court and the potential for big payoffs means there's some impetus for someone to actually take up a civil rights violation case, where local DAs only see negatives and political risk.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Good Samaritan who likely stopped a mass shooting was shot dead by responding cops.



https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/good-samaritan-who-died-in-arvada-shooting-was-shot-by-police-according-to-sources
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Surveillance video has been released that shows the suspect exiting his truck with a shotgun, shooting the officer and returning to his truck to grab an AR-15.



The police are telling reporters what happened next. The Samaritan shot the suspect, picked up the AR-15 and was then shot by another officer. They have not explained what evidence backs up that sequence of events.
 
Kestrel said:
Surveillance video has been released that shows the suspect exiting his truck with a shotgun, shooting the officer and returning to his truck to grab an AR-15.



The police are telling reporters what happened next. The Samaritan shot the suspect, picked up the AR-15 and was then shot by another officer. They have not explained what evidence backs up that sequence of events.
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Going by how these things go they probably have video of him doing something entirely different. But who are you going to believe the police or your lying eyes?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Change of qualified immunity would indeed be a huge step. It should be the courts that kill this thing. SCOTUS invented qualified immunity out of whole cloth in 1967, so it's only appropriate that they clean up their mess:

https://theappeal.org/the-lab/explainers/qualified-immunity-explained/



It should be said that civil lawsuits are really thin gruel when it comes to dealing with police violence. It would still be a huge double standard if cops can commit acts of criminal violence and would only be looking at civil, not criminal, sanctions. The real "just" solution would be criminal prosecution for examples of police brutality or other civil rights violations, but that is a huge ask where DAs have close relationships with the police and bootlicker politics reign supreme. There's some movement on that front, with the DOJ making a big show of investigating a few high profile cases of police brutality, but it's hard to imagine this standard will apply to more routine, low-profile examples of police criminal violence.

At least with civil lawsuits, the adversarial system of the court and the potential for big payoffs means there's some impetus for someone to actually take up a civil rights violation case, where local DAs only see negatives and political risk.
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In many situations this should include criminal prosecution of the police service not just the grunt on the ground. Command responsibility. If The officers commanding were at risk of conviction for the actions of those under their command standards would be enforced / improved. Continuing to prosecute individual officers will have less impact than prosecuting the Sheriff / police chief, etc. At present it easier to keep dubious people in post and not stand up to the
union. If keeping someone in post who was not suited to be a police officer meant those in charge might have to take responsibility for subsequent happenings I think there would be more steel in dealing with police unions.
 
Cop shot and killed a 17 year old boy that was armed with a blue jug. Witness at the scene says cop made no commands or warning, just opened fire striking the boy in the neck.

During a traffic stop last week, an Arkansas sheriff’s deputy shot and killed a teenage boy who was only armed with a neon-blue jug of antifreeze, family members told VICE News.

Lonoke County Sheriff’s Office Sgt. Michael Davis stopped 17-year-old Hunter Brittain near Cabot, Arkansas, at about 3 a.m. last Wednesday, and it’s still unclear why. Hunter had been having trouble with his truck when Davis pulled in behind him outside of a local auto repair shop and flashed his emergency lights, according to the account of a 16-year-old riding with Hunter at the time. When Hunter went to put the antifreeze behind his back tire so his vehicle wouldn’t roll into the officer’s, Davis allegedly fired at him.
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https://www.vice.com/en/article/5db5qa/hunter-brittain-arkansas-teen-holding-antifreeze-shot-killed-sheriffs-deputy?utm_source=vicenewstwitter

“In potentially dangerous situations, deputies are often forced to make split-second decisions,” Staley said. “Second-guessing those decisions, especially when the facts are still unclear, is dangerous and unfair.”
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Some might argue that getting shot dead for trying to chock the tires on your broken truck is dangerous and unfair, but opinions differ.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Cop shot and killed a 17 year old boy that was armed with a blue jug. Witness at the scene says cop made no commands or warning, just opened fire striking the boy in the neck.



https://www.vice.com/en/article/5db5qa/hunter-brittain-arkansas-teen-holding-antifreeze-shot-killed-sheriffs-deputy?utm_source=vicenewstwitter



Some might argue that getting shot dead for trying to chock the tires on your broken truck is dangerous and unfair, but opinions differ.
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I'd like to ask Warp12's opinion on what actions this "perp" took to warrant the officer to use deadly force.
 
erlando said:
I'd like to ask Warp12's opinion on what actions this "perp" took to warrant the officer to use deadly force.
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It could have been a Molotov Cocktail. Imagine how much damage one that size could do.
A giant, bright blue, unlit Molotov Cocktail.
 
I wonder a certain someone will be along to question how fast this kid can run for 40 pages and then deny they ever did it?

Somehow I doubt it.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I wonder a certain someone will be along to question how fast this kid can run for 40 pages and then deny they ever did it?

Somehow I doubt it.
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Lying, check. Eyelash fluttering, check. Nice to see you've checked in early.

So this kid is doing transmission work at 3AM ( story says he wasn't broken down, but was working through the night doing tranny repairs, so he could drive to a construction site to work at 6 AM. I'm sure he could work safely on no sleep and working on a truck through the night, rather than make other arrangements to get to work. Also, the truck was apparently rolling backwards into the cop So I guess his parking brake didn't work either.

The truck was apparently rolling backwards towards the cop car, with the cop in it (since the cop stopped him, the trans was functioning up until said stop). So the kid was likely moving fast with the...antifreeze jug?...to chock the tires and avoid rolling into the cruiser. So the cop looks up at 3AM to see a truck backing up towards him and a kid unexpectedly jumping out of the vehicle and heading towards him fast, with something large in his hand. Yeah, the cop had every reason to be concerned that something weird was going on and it was possibly an attack against him.

But that's not good enough to shoot to the neck, or shoot at all. This cop should never breathe free air again. As with Guyger, the McMicheals and all the rest: why isn't this cop in lockup for murder right ******* now? You or I would be.
 
Thermal said:
Lying, check. Eyelash fluttering, check. Nice to see you've checked in early.

So this kid is doing transmission work at 3AM ( story says he wasn't broken down, but was working through the night doing tranny repairs, so he could drive to a construction site to work at 6 AM. I'm sure he could work safely on no sleep and working on a truck through the night, rather than make other arrangements to get to work. Also, the truck was apparently rolling backwards into the cop So I guess his parking brake didn't work either.

The truck was apparently rolling backwards towards the cop car, with the cop in it (since the cop stopped him, the trans was functioning up until said stop). So the kid was likely moving fast with the...antifreeze jug?...to chock the tires and avoid rolling into the cruiser. So the cop looks up at 3AM to see a truck backing up towards him and a kid unexpectedly jumping out of the vehicle and heading towards him fast, with something large in his hand. Yeah, the cop had every reason to be concerned that something weird was going on and it was possibly an attack against him.

But that's not good enough to shoot to the neck, or shoot at all. This cop should never breathe free air again. As with Guyger, the McMicheals and all the rest: why isn't this cop in lockup for murder right ******* now? You or I would be.
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Story seems to add up so far:

Scott Hundley owns Hundley Construction and he said that Brittain worked for him on and off for the past few years. Hundley said he talked to Hunter around 7 p.m. the night before.

“I was checking with him on his truck,” Hundley said. “[He was] sending me pictures of his truck at the shop. He says he's been working on this truck but he’s trying to make it.”

Hundley said Hunter worked harder for him than many adults. Hundley showed KATV the Facebook messages between the two where Hunter tells his boss he’ll ask for a ride from another co-worker if he’s unable to get his truck up and running.
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There’s only one other person who was there that morning. Jordan King, 16, spoke to KATV off camera. He said he and Brittain had worked through the night to change the transmission on his truck so he could work that morning and drove about a mile down the road to Mahoney's Body Shop to make the repairs. He said their families are friends with the owner.
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https://katv.com/news/local/teen-witness-to-hunter-brittains-death-by-deputy-shares-his-story

Sounds like a 17 year old kid trying to get to work on time to me. According to this he had a good work ethic. Some young people do.

ETA:

Let's try this version:

So the cop looks up at 3AM to see a truck slowly rolling up towards him and a kid getting out of the vehicle and heading towards the car, with something large in his hand.
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I can think of twenty other possibilities of why someone would do this, the least common being "guy was about to shoot cop"

- guy is drunk or high
- guy has mental issues
- guy is dumb
- guy doesn't expect cops to shoot people carrying objects that don't look like guns.

I would think that all of these happen much more frequently then

- guy gets out to shoot cop
 
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mgidm86 said:
Story seems to add up so far:





https://katv.com/news/local/teen-witness-to-hunter-brittains-death-by-deputy-shares-his-story

Sounds like a 17 year old kid trying to get to work on time to me. According to this he had a good work ethic. Some young people do.

ETA:

Let's try this version:




I can think of twenty other possibilities of why someone would do this, the least common being "guy was about to shoot cop"

- guy is drunk or high
- guy has mental issues
- guy is dumb
- guy doesn't expect cops to shoot people carrying objects that don't look like guns.

I would think that all of these happen much more frequently then

- guy gets out to shoot cop
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Agreed. Did you make it to the end of the post you are responding to?

Re: the driver. He drives in the middle of the night on a bad transmission (?) to switch it out. He's on that till 3AM. With some other 16 yr old in the truck. During his 1 mile ride home (what, 2 or three minutes of driving?), he does something to attract the attention of the Sheriff. The Deputy perhaps wants to talk about curfews and minor drivers with other children in the car and no adult (my states laws, anyway). Maybe something about driving a highly unsafe vehicle.

So the truck starts rolling backwards towards the cop. The driver couldn't hit the brakes, I assume. Or the parking brake, either. He feels he has to...shove a jug of antifreeze to chock the tire? You ever try that? I don't think that would work out.

What I'm saying is this story has a lot of highly implausible in it. I'm guessing it's been edited to make the driver look innocent and hard-working. But as I said before, no reason to shoot. The cop should be in a cell right now like you or I would.
 
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Thermal said:
Agreed. Did you make it to the end of the post you are responding to?

Re: the driver. He drives in the middle of the night on a bad transmission (?) to switch it out. He's on that till 3AM. With some other 16 yr old in the truck. During his 1 mile ride home (what, 2 or three minutes of driving?), he does something to attract the attention of the Sheriff. The Deputy perhaps wants to talk about curfews and minor drivers with other children in the car and no adult (my states laws, anyway). Maybe something about driving a highly unsafe vehicle.

So the truck starts rolling backwards towards the cop. The driver couldn't hit the brakes, I assume. Or the parking brake, either. He feels he has to...shove a jug of antifreeze to chock the tire? You ever try that? I don't think that would work out.

What I'm saying is this story has a lot of highly implausible in it. I'm guessing it's been edited to make the driver look innocent and hard-working. But as I said before, no reason to shoot. The cop should be in a cell right now like you or I would.
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What other explanation do you propose that is more plausible? Seems like you're casting a lot of doubt based on your personal incredulity but not offering any other explanation that you find less fanciful.


I have a lot of sympathy for this kid. I spent a lot of time in my youth trying to keep junkers running. For a while I had to park my motorcycle at the top of the hill to bump start it because the charging system didn't work, and I spent more hours than I care to count tinkering in parking lots and auto shops. No cop murdered me for the crime of being too poor for a reliable vehicle, so I guess I have no complaints.
 
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