The BAE Systems Scandal

peteweaver

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peteweaver
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Mar 1, 2007
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Has anyone heard about the alleged bribery of members of the saudi government by BAE systems to earn lucrative defence contracts ?

The BBC's Panorama programme recently did a very interesting documentary about it.
 
My first thoughts are "So what even if they were direct bribes?"

If we are willing to engage in selling arms to such regimes as SA then we have to do deals with the people who control those terrible regimes and guess what? They are not "good" people! Therefore we will have to "bribe" if we want the deals. (I use quotes around bribes because I always associate a bribe with wrong doing and in terms of these regimes the payments made are not considered wrong.)
 
You know I have to agree. When I see stuff like this, I am reminded of the movie "A Few Good Men".

For all that Jack Nicholsons character was an ass, he did have a few good points in his statement, regarding the double standards people have with respect to what needs to happen to keep people safe on this continent.

Funny how as you get older, your perspective on all this changes.

TAM:)
 
I thought the problem is when your government accepts a bribe from someone else's private company, not when one of your private companies offers a bribe to someone else's government.

-Gumboot
 
Fact: bribes happen...all the time.
Fact: first fact will never change.
Fact: while it is wrong, It is the way the world works.

TAM:)
 
T.A.M. said:
You know I have to agree. When I see stuff like this, I am reminded of the movie "A Few Good Men".

For all that Jack Nicholsons character was an ass, he did have a few good points in his statement, regarding the double standards people have with respect to what needs to happen to keep people safe on this continent.

Funny how as you get older, your perspective on all this changes.

TAM:)
Click to expand...

Who was it that said "If you're not a rebel aged 20, you have no heart. If you're not establishment by 30, you have no head."
 
8den said:
Who was it that said "If you're not a rebel aged 20, you have no heart. If you're not establishment by 30, you have no head."
Click to expand...

Francois Guisot, apparently;

Charles Krauthammer [op-ed, May 25] quotes Winston Churchill as saying, "If you're not a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative when you're 40, you have no head."

This quotation is frequently but mistakenly attributed to Churchill. It is anyway unlikely that Churchill would subscribe to this philosophy: He was a swashbuckling soldier at 20, and a Conservative member of Parliament at 25. A couple of years later he switched to the Liberal Party (which was not liberal in the modern sense), and later went back to the Conservatives.

The phrase originated with Francois Guisot (1787-1874): "Not to be a republican at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head." It was revived by French Premier Georges Clemenceau (1841-1929): "Not to be a socialist at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head."
Click to expand...
Washington Post letter.
 
gumboot said:
I thought the problem is when your government accepts a bribe from someone else's private company, not when one of your private companies offers a bribe to someone else's government.

-Gumboot
Click to expand...

The thing with Bae systems is that not only are they Britains largest arms dealer, they are also heavily tax subsidised.

We have a thing called the export credit guarantee department, which protects UK companies (including arms companies) should the foreign buyer default on payment.

The really interesting thing about this, is whether UK taxpayer's footed the bill for a bribe, which earned a company an arms deal.
 
gumboot said:
I thought the problem is when your government accepts a bribe from someone else's private company, not when one of your private companies offers a bribe to someone else's government.

-Gumboot
Click to expand...

As peteweaver alludes to, it is a problem when your gov't (or a company that receieves gov't funds) uses its money (your tax dollars) to pay bribes.

If it becomes OK to pay bribes to foreign officials in order to get contracts then it is not all that far removed from paying bribes to your own gov't's officials in order to get contracts. (actually in the later case at least the money remains within the country:D )
 
Ah OK, well if BAE are receiving government funds that totally changes things.

-Gumboot
 
According to the Panorama documentary about this, Prince Bandar, recieved bribes, including a personal jet.

And by personal jet, we are not talking lear jets, he recieved his very own personal Airbus A340 worth £75million pounds ($150 million).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/baefiles/story/0,,2103730,00.html

And this is it:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43034000/jpg/_43034039_bandarplane203_joelvoght.jpg

In march the serious fraud office dropped its investigation into the deals, and gave the following reason: "To continue the investigation was going to cause damage, it was going to cause serious harm with our relations with Saudi Arabia" Possible threats to national security were also mentioned as a reason for dropping the investigation.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6444205.stm

There are also points about this deal, and about ECGD subsidy on the UK parliament website:-
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070328/text/70328w0022.htm
 
8den said:
Who was it that said "If you're not a rebel aged 20, you have no heart. If you're not establishment by 30, you have no head."
Click to expand...


That is suprisingly close to a quote that I often see attributed to Winston Churchill, but from what I've read in other places (including some Wikipedia page about falsely attributed quotes) he never said it. But it was something to the effect of:

"If you are not a liberal at age 20, you have no heart.. If you are not a conservative at age 40, you have no brain".
 
Whiplash said:
That is suprisingly close to a quote that I often see attributed to Winston Churchill, but from what I've read in other places (including some Wikipedia page about falsely attributed quotes) he never said it. But it was something to the effect of:

"If you are not a liberal at age 20, you have no heart.. If you are not a conservative at age 40, you have no brain".
Click to expand...

Erm, mate...
 
Woops, I skimmed that post, only saw the end part of it with the proper quote and rushed off to post... My apologies.
 
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