"The absolute, honest truth about UFOs"

[Jodie]

Where do pilots go to get their eyeballs calibrated so they see better than the rest of us.

Tsig, considering your avatar, is that irony or a logical fallacy?

 

[Donn]

.. there is evidence to suggest we have alien life visiting us all the time.

I think you mean fantasy. There is fantasy that alien life is visiting.

If you have actual evidence .. show it. If you can't it's a fantasy.

Nanotechnology is a relatively new thing for us, probably not for a more technologically advanced society. It would be easier for an alien civilization to send out these kinds of scouts to see what's out there than their own citizens.

So it's not aliens visiting us but their tiny machines? Again, with the fantasy.

Look, I get it. It's not that complex. Von Neumann got there long ago. It's a fun sci-fi thought. That's all.

This is an article about panspermia, I guess we've finally "noticed" the alien visitors. There are several other sources discussing this find, but this one had the coolest pics:

Urgh. No.

 

[Jodie]

I don't think there is anything you have speculated in your various posts in this thread that has not been write about in at least one Science Fiction story in the last one-hundred years or so. Some pretty damn smart people have give considerable thought about such possibilities. If you are truly interested in this topic, go and read some Science Fiction. Whether you will learn something is up to you.

I would like to address this with a little more depth. Are you insinuating that I'm uneducated about the topic of UFO's? Can I ask for some suggestions for references so that I can acquire your level of knowledge about the possibility of alien life visiting our planet?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I would like to address this with a little more depth. Are you insinuating that I'm uneducated about the topic of UFO's? Can I ask for some suggestions for references so that I can acquire your level of knowledge about the possibility of alien life visiting our planet?

I guess Jodie will not be reading this response for some time now.

If you accept my premise that there have been many stories that have been written about aliens and alien visitation, it looks as if you'll have a month to do your own research.

You could possibly start here Alien_invasion^WP though it scarcely scratches the surface -- neither Olaf_Stapledon^WP or /Eric_Frank_Russell^WP are mentioned to just pick two off the top of my head.

 

[jakesteele]

I am constantly amazed about the faith so many people have in the idea that since Pilots, Police Officers etc., report seeing various UFO phenomena that that testimony has a much higher believability factor. The notion appears to be that Pilots, Police Officers etc., are significantly more reliable than "ordinary" witnesses to UFOs. Is this in fact even true? Frankly this seems to be a variation of arguing from authority. And like all arguments from authority it has to be examined in depth.

Now Police officers may be significantly more reliable than "ordinary" people in describing crime scenes / crimes and Pilots more reliable in describing weather and other planes etc. But does this have any bearing in terms of greater accuracy in describing UFO phenomena?

Well apparently not. It is unlikely that Pilots, Police are significantly more accurate that "ordinary" people when describing what are perceived to be unusual phenomena such as UFOs. In fact the book UFOs: The Public Deceived, by Philip J. Klass published more than 30 years ago, (1983) reports ( pp. 81-87) that something like 88% of UFO reports by military pilots were "Identified Flying Objects" (IFOs), even with multiple witnesses the number was 76%! Airline and Civil pilots had a 89% misidentification of IFOs has UFOs and with multiple witnesses it was 79% of IFOs identified as UFOs. If people had technical training the number of IFOs identified has UFOs was 65% for single witnesses and 50% for multiple. These figures come from Allen Hynek's book The UFO Report, 1977. ( I used to have a copy) Since Hynek was a UFO believer who had every incentive to find mysterious "unexplained" sightings I regard his figures has damning. As for Police officers well Hynek describes how in the fall of 1967 a large number of Police officers in Georgia were taken in by the planet Venus mistaking it for a UFO. In 1979 another UFO believer Hendry published a book called The UFO Handbook, in which out of 1307 cases he was able to find prosaic explanations for 91.4% of the cases. Of the remainder he found possible prosaic explanations for 7.1% leaving just 1.5% unexplained! So all we have left is the damn residue that are likely unexplained because of lack of information.

The idea that Police Officers, Pilots etc., are significantly more reliable that "ordinary" witnesses when it comes to UFO phenomena is a statement of faith not backed up by much evidence. Perhaps they are indeed more reliable but any difference from "ordinary" witnesses would seem to be not large and has such Police Officers, Pilots are subject to the same errors of interpretation etc., that "ordinary" witnesses are in relation to UFO phenomena and has such their testimony about such things is apparently not significantly more reliable. And frankly it appears that like with the majority of "ordinary" testimony most of it is misperceptions.

I find it remarkable that the old Police Officers and Pilots testimony is reliable trope regarding UFOs is trotted out when for at least a generation this has been shown to be well wrong.

They are better witness's than the average person and certainly magicians or forensic document examiners, and amateur astronomers. Pilots go through aircraft silhouette identification for all known friendly planes and enemy planes. When a pilot sees a flying saucer type or a long cigar type or glowing balls of different colors, they pick up on it right away.

Cops also go through training surprising cadets with two terrorists bursting through and start firing weapons (blanks). Then they ask the recruits for descriptions and they come out differently. After they go through that training and others like it they come out with much better skills than before.

I can't understand why this site fights so hard on the matter of UFOs when at the same time most all of you seem to espouse the Drake Equation and believe, just by sheer numbers, that there must be some kind of life out there. Since that's the case, it is not a stretch at all to extend that to advanced races with advanced craft. Out of one side of your mouths you say that there must be life in the universe and out of the other you say Bah, humbug, there ain't no alien craft here on earth. I think it's because if there were entire world views would shatter and fragment and they chuck the drake equation right out the door. Why the split personality saying you do believe and you don't believe?

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

The probability of life existing somewhere in a vast universe does not automatically support every random who sees Jupiter or a flock of geese. Skeptical analysis does not require me to "believe" something unproven just because maybe, possibly, somewhere far far away life has arisen and climbed out of the mud.

 

[RoboTimbo]

They are better witness's than the average person and certainly magicians or forensic document examiners, and amateur astronomers. Pilots go through aircraft silhouette identification for all known friendly planes and enemy planes. When a pilot sees a flying saucer type or a long cigar type or glowing balls of different colors, they pick up on it right away.

Then won't you be honest and answer the questions? Why won't you be honest?

Are you referring to pilots such as the ones at Campeche? That kind of trained observer?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

They are better witness's than the average person and certainly magicians or forensic document examiners, and amateur astronomers. Pilots go through aircraft silhouette identification for all known friendly planes and enemy planes. When a pilot sees a flying saucer type or a long cigar type or glowing balls of different colors, they pick up on it right away.

Cops also go through training surprising cadets with two terrorists bursting through and start firing weapons (blanks). Then they ask the recruits for descriptions and they come out differently. After they go through that training and others like it they come out with much better skills than before.

I can't understand why this site fights so hard on the matter of UFOs when at the same time most all of you seem to espouse the Drake Equation and believe, just by sheer numbers, that there must be some kind of life out there. Since that's the case, it is not a stretch at all to extend that to advanced races with advanced craft. Out of one side of your mouths you say that there must be life in the universe and out of the other you say Bah, humbug, there ain't no alien craft here on earth. I think it's because if there were entire world views would shatter and fragment and they chuck the drake equation right out the door. Why the split personality saying you do believe and you don't believe?

BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN NO INCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE PRESENTED OF ANY SIGHTING THAT HAS NOT EITHER BEEN EXPLAINED IN PERFECTLY MUNDANE WAYS OR COULD BE.

Just provide ONE sighting that can be verified as inexplicable and I'll ONCE AGAIN become a believer; as I once was.

Of course, it is most likely that there is other intelligent life in the Universe. It's just there is no proof that this planet has been visited by any such.

There are a large number of all sky camera networks across North America (and, I presume, elsewhere in the World). Every night these record a huge swath of the heavens looking for meteorites. No "UFO"s have been recorded.

And, please, stop with the stupid pop psychology readings of the posters here on this forum. You are way out of your depth.

 

[MG1962]

The probability of life existing somewhere in a vast universe does not automatically support every random who sees Jupiter or a flock of geese. Skeptical analysis does not require me to "believe" something unproven just because maybe, possibly, somewhere far far away life has arisen and climbed out of the mud.

And the vast majority of people interested in this stuff keep a totally open mind about the subject. So far we have not found one factor that precludes the existence of life in the universe. At the same time we have found no definitive proof that life has risen anywhere in the universe except on Earth.

And sometimes we forget how far we have come so quickly. Only 40 years ago the existence of other planets moved from theory to probable. 80 years ago we actually figured out what a star was. 100 years ago what a galaxy was.

Who knows where our knowledge will be in another 40 years

 

[MG1962]

There are a large number of all sky camera networks across North America (and, I presume, elsewhere in the World). Every night these record a huge swath of the heavens looking for meteorites. No "UFO"s have been recorded.

And to put this into perspective the Skywatch program in the early 90s detected an asteroid 20 feet across at a distance twice that of the Moon. So any aliens trying to sneak up on us are going to have a real time of it.

 

[tsig]

And the vast majority of people interested in this stuff keep a totally open mind about the subject. So far we have not found one factor that precludes the existence of life in the universe. At the same time we have found no definitive proof that life has risen anywhere in the universe except on Earth.

And sometimes we forget how far we have come so quickly. Only 40 years ago the existence of other planets moved from theory to probable. 80 years ago we actually figured out what a star was. 100 years ago what a galaxy was.

Who knows where our knowledge will be in another 40 years

Running naked thru the jungle telling tales of how great our ancestors were?

 

[Fudbucker]

It depends on whether faster-than-light travel is possible, and if it is, how fast you can go. If you can go lightyears in seconds, then it's completely plausible that out of the hundreds of billions of planets in the galaxy there are some advanced civilizations, and that they might be curious enough to keep an eye on us. Maybe there are alien Jane Goodall equivalents who live among us just out of curiosity.

But if FTL travel isn't possible, then it's doubtful there are any alien craft buzzing around us.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

It depends on whether faster-than-light travel is possible, and if it is, how fast you can go. If you can go lightyears in seconds, then it's completely plausible that out of the hundreds of billions of planets in the galaxy there are some advanced civilizations, and that they might be curious enough to keep an eye on us. Maybe there are alien Jane Goodall equivalents who live among us just out of curiosity.

But if FTL travel isn't possible, then it's doubtful there are any alien craft buzzing around us.

So a Prime Directive and/or beings who live really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really slooooowly?

 

[Pacal]

They are better witness's than the average person and certainly magicians or forensic document examiners, and amateur astronomers. Pilots go through aircraft silhouette identification for all known friendly planes and enemy planes. When a pilot sees a flying saucer type or a long cigar type or glowing balls of different colors, they pick up on it right away.

Cops also go through training surprising cadets with two terrorists bursting through and start firing weapons (blanks). Then they ask the recruits for descriptions and they come out differently. After they go through that training and others like it they come out with much better skills than before.

Such touching faith. I point out that what evidence we have does not indicate that when it comes to unusual phenomena Pilots and Cops are significantly more reliable than "ordinary" people. And has such your assertion was an assertion of faith. The evidence I referred to would seem to indicate that like "ordinary" witnesses Police officers and Pilots were wrong the majority of time and mistook IFOs for UFOs. I frankly just do not see Pilots and Cops has privileged witnesses for UFO phenomena. In fact I have read that Pilots and Cops are worst witnesses for UFO phenomena than "ordinary" people because their training tends to make them more likely to see what isn't there in order to make sense of it. I don't know how seriously to take that point of view. Regardless I seriously doubt that Pilots and Cops are quantitatively much more accurate than "ordinary" people when describing UFOs.

I can't understand why this site fights so hard on the matter of UFOs when at the same time most all of you seem to espouse the Drake Equation and believe, just by sheer numbers, that there must be some kind of life out there. Since that's the case, it is not a stretch at all to extend that to advanced races with advanced craft. Out of one side of your mouths you say that there must be life in the universe and out of the other you say Bah, humbug, there ain't no alien craft here on earth. I think it's because if there were entire world views would shatter and fragment and they chuck the drake equation right out the door. Why the split personality saying you do believe and you don't believe?

You can fantasize all you want about world views shattering and fragmenting that is a mere strawman. It is perfectly possible to assert that Alien life may exist and think, quite reasonably, that UFOs are bunk. The extraordinary lack of good evidence the demonstrated tendency of humans to confabulate and misperceive IFOs as UFOs etc., led to the obvious conclusion that UFOs as extra-terrestrial spacecraft has not been demonstrated or is even probable it remains an unlikely possibility and that is all.

Assuming that alien life exists does not make it likely that intelligent life is common in the Universe, or that intelligent, technological life is common or that intelligent technological life lasts very long or engages in space travel between the stars. If you want to speculate it could be that right now there is very few intelligent, technological spacefaring societies in the Universe. I frankly suspect that most intelligent life in the Universe may in fact be non technological like versions of whales etc.

It has been many, many decades of research by UFO hunters and what we have are just stories that are not in the end very convincing. In fact many UFO hunters have abandoned the idea that UFOs are in fact Alien spacecraft and talk about other dimensions. They do this mainly because of the reports by UFO witnesses describing UFOs has behaving in ways that defy physical laws and just don't make any sense.

You do realize that if you put certain figures in the Drake equation you get the result that the number of intelligent, technological Aliens in the Universe is 1 - that is us.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Okay, I read them. So what? A pilot related an incident where he was fooled and then goes into the pareidolia of humans in general, including amateur astronomers. I still stand by my statement. I will take their word before I take that of an a priori armchair quarterbacks.

Well I am a pilot so I can tell you - any pilot who says he saw an extraterrestrial craft is either mistaken, deluded, or a liar.

You know what the 'U' in UFO stands for? That's right, unidentified. That means we just don't know what it is. Sometimes it turns out to be the planet Venus, or light bouncing off an inversion layer, or a spot on the windshield. But we may never manage to identify it for the simple reason that we don't have enough information. That does not mean that it is (or even could be) an extraterrestrial craft piloted by aliens.

It also doesn't mean that it was an angel, an enemy plane, a weather balloon or anything else. UFO incidents that don't have a satisfactory explanation are simply unexplained. That is all we can say about them, and anybody who says different is lying.

Pilots go through aircraft silhouette identification for all known friendly planes and enemy planes.

And here's the official identification chart.

 

[jakesteele]

Then won't you be honest and answer the questions? Why won't you be honest?

Are you referring to pilots such as the ones at Campeche? That kind of trained observer?

Mainly military and commercial. My dad flew B-24 Bombers in WWII and 747s for N.W. Orient Airlines and never once did he or any of the other pilots he knew never once got fooled by the planet Venus or flicked cigarette butts, swarms or bugs, lighthouses, etc.

Venus is the most used and abused excuse or rationale used to try to debunk UFO sightings. I recently read that Shameless Joe Nickel, whose debunking of things ain't worth a plugged nickel, said of the Japanese Pilots in Alaska who had that famous sighting, that they had probably seen Venus.

As I said in a previous post that most of the people would accept some form of life in the universe via the Drake Equation, but act like rabid dogs when it comes to UFOs even though there have been thousands of sightings. If you believe that it is very probable that some form of life exists elsewhere you have opened the door to UFOs and alien intelligence.

So why do you think there is probability life elsewhere yet deny the possibility of alien UFOs. Please don't go into the regular spiel of how none have been proven(neither has string theory, whether there is/was life on Mars, etc.,) and all the pictures are blurry and jerky. There are very clear pics out there. And no, I won't provide the links until you have made a good faith gesture of scouring the internet for the good ones. It will be a good exercise in Open minded true-skeptic critical thinking.

 

[jakesteele]

Well I am a pilot so I can tell you - any pilot who says he saw an extraterrestrial craft is either mistaken, deluded, or a liar.

You know what the 'U' in UFO stands for? That's right, unidentified. That means we just don't know what it is. Sometimes it turns out to be the planet Venus, or light bouncing off an inversion layer, or a spot on the windshield. But we may never manage to identify it for the simple reason that we don't have enough information. That does not mean that it is (or even could be) an extraterrestrial craft piloted by aliens.

It also doesn't mean that it was an angel, an enemy plane, a weather balloon or anything else. UFO incidents that don't have a satisfactory explanation are simply unexplained. That is all we can say about them, and anybody who says different is lying.

And here's the official identification chart.

What happened to you? The last time I saw you you were deeply involved in a UFO thread and you were defending different UFO sightings, I recall. Debunkers don't look at all of the sightings(way too many) yet they seem to extend that to all sightings. That's like someone walking through gang territory and they get mugged, robbed, etc., and the extrapolating that all blacks/hispanic are all bad people. I will take the word of a commercial or military pilot waaaaay before I would take the word of an amateur astronomer. Think about it if an AA doesn't believe and especially ones like The Bad Astronomer Phil Plaitt(not an amateur) they could very well have a cognitive blind spot and may interpret it as planes or may not even see anything at all. Debunkers are just as likely to have blind spots just like they do to their dreaded enemies the woosters.

 

[tsig]

Mainly military and commercial. My dad flew B-24 Bombers in WWII and 747s for N.W. Orient Airlines and never once did he or any of the other pilots he knew never once got fooled by the planet Venus or flicked cigarette butts, swarms or bugs, lighthouses, etc.

Venus is the most used and abused excuse or rationale used to try to debunk UFO sightings. I recently read that Shameless Joe Nickel, whose debunking of things ain't worth a plugged nickel, said of the Japanese Pilots in Alaska who had that famous sighting, that they had probably seen Venus.

As I said in a previous post that most of the people would accept some form of life in the universe via the Drake Equation, but act like rabid dogs when it comes to UFOs even though there have been thousands of sightings. If you believe that it is very probable that some form of life exists elsewhere you have opened the door to UFOs and alien intelligence.

So why do you think there is probability life elsewhere yet deny the possibility of alien UFOs. Please don't go into the regular spiel of how none have been proven(neither has string theory, whether there is/was life on Mars, etc.,) and all the pictures are blurry and jerky. There are very clear pics out there. And no, I won't provide the links until you have made a good faith gesture of scouring the internet for the good ones. It will be a good exercise in Open minded true-skeptic critical thinking.

The Truth^TM is out there.

But it ain't up to you to find it.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Mainly military and commercial. My dad flew B-24 Bombers in WWII and 747s for N.W. Orient Airlines and never once did he or any of the other pilots he knew never once got fooled by the planet Venus or flicked cigarette butts, swarms or bugs, lighthouses, etc.

I know of Thomas Mantel who got fooled by the planet Venus.

Venus is the most used and abused excuse or rationale used to try to debunk UFO sightings. I recently read that Shameless Joe Nickel, whose debunking of things ain't worth a plugged nickel,

Poisoning the well.

said of the Japanese Pilots in Alaska who had that famous sighting, that they had probably seen Venus.

Do you have information otherwise? What was it finally confirmed to be that they saw?

As I said in a previous post that most of the people would accept some form of life in the universe via the Drake Equation,

Even without the Drake equation, I accept that the chances of life elsewhere in the universe are as close to 1 as it is to get. We see how tenacious life is and how it can start and then thrive in adverse (to us) conditions.

but act like rabid dogs when it comes to UFOs even though there have been thousands of sightings.

I have no problem with UFOs. They're unidentified. No problem there. It's when people start identifying them as alien space ships that I pause. Thousands of sightings of what? How many have been confirmed to be alien space ships? And yet that's the favorite go-to identification of UFOnuts.

If you believe that it is very probable that some form of life exists elsewhere you have opened the door to UFOs and alien intelligence.

UFOs are a given. I've seen things in the sky that I couldn't identify. One of them continued to bank until I saw that it was a B2 in Missouri. I don't equate "UFO" with "alien space ship". Only dreamers do that. We know there is intelligent life on this planet. How many other solar systems have we visited?

So why do you think there is probability life elsewhere yet deny the possibility of alien UFOs.

As explained, the possibility of life elsewhere is virtually 1. We have innumerable examples of life and how it can arise in which conditions. What we don't have is any evidence of the ability to travel faster than light or that any other civilization has visited us. If you have some, please present it.

Please don't go into the regular spiel of how none have been proven(neither has string theory, whether there is/was life on Mars, etc.,) and all the pictures are blurry and jerky.

But string theory is a theory in the scientific sense. Please don't equate a layman's definition of "theory" with that. That is only typical of woo slingers who want somehow to have their pet beliefs equate with scientific theories. It doesn't work that way.

There are very clear pics out there. And no, I won't provide the links until you have made a good faith gesture of scouring the internet for the good ones. It will be a good exercise in Open minded true-skeptic critical thinking.

I've already seen good quality ones. Ever since the advent of Photo Shop.

Do you have any that are confirmed to be alien space ships?

 

[JohnG]

Debunkers are just as likely to have blind spots just like they do to their dreaded enemies the woosters.

Now you take that back! I adore P.G. Wodehouse!