The 9/11 Truther Credo

mattlodder said:
Pagan! I'm British. So is Maccy.

I'm also involved in left-wing activism, and am a carrot-munching vegan hippie doing a liberal arts doctorate with a proto-Marxist supervisor. I'm rabidly anti-war, anti-guns, pro-choice, anti-religious (and atheist). I'm very concerned about the Patriot Act, and laws modelled on it in my country. I have written to my MP on these issues. I believe in non-heirachical, local politics. I'm tattooed from shin to wrist and back again. Basically, I'm about as far from a GOP supporter as it might be possible to get.

Accepting that Arabic terrorism caused 9-11 does not mean accepting that there was no subsequent manipulation of the situation for political ends. You can be very anti-Bush without having to resort to decrying the laws of physics!

As I've stated before in these forums, all this talk of imaginary explosives and pretend conspiracies and NWOs and Illuminati and Satanic Death Cults are actually a distraction from the really bad stuff your (and my) government are up to! You're not helping the cause, you're very much hindering it. And it's very, very frustrating.

You come across as quite young. A teenager, or just slightly older. You'll learn about the world in time, son, and you'll realise that grey is much more interesting, and plausible, to black and white. Left-wing politics is not about claiming the Bush and the GOP are the Devil, and the sooner you realise this, the better!
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If you look at Pagan's profile, you'll see that he is 46 years old.

For the record, I'll state that I have been a peace campaigner, on and off, since 1983. I protested against both Iraq Wars and the Afghanistan one. I have no love for Bush and consider both US parties and American political thinking in general to be too right-wing (to generalise) and a betrayal of America's poor. Furthermore, I consider American foreign policy since 1945 to have been an almost completely unmitigated disaster for the world and that the actions of the CIA, in particular, have been reprehensible. I vote for a left-wing fringe party, the Alliance for Green Socialism, in elections because I can't bring myself to vote for Tony Blair's Labour Party.

All this is just for information, I'm not about to start a debate on any of these issues. I'm just confirming to Pagan how wrong his assumptions are.
 
I didn't even know I was a Bush-loving neocon till I started talking to Truthers.

What gave me away--the hair, or the sandals?
 
mattlodder said:
Pagan! I'm British. So is Maccy.

I'm also involved in left-wing activism, and am a carrot-munching vegan hippie doing a liberal arts doctorate with a proto-Marxist supervisor. I'm rabidly anti-war, anti-guns, pro-choice, anti-religious (and atheist). I'm very concerned about the Patriot Act, and laws modelled on it in my country. I have written to my MP on these issues. I believe in non-heirachical, local politics. I'm tattooed from shin to wrist and back again. Basically, I'm about as far from a GOP supporter as it might be possible to get.

Accepting that Arabic terrorism caused 9-11 does not mean accepting that there was no subsequent manipulation of the situation for political ends. You can be very anti-Bush without having to resort to decrying the laws of physics!

As I've stated before in these forums, all this talk of imaginary explosives and pretend conspiracies and NWOs and Illuminati and Satanic Death Cults are actually a distraction from the really bad stuff your (and my) government are up to! You're not helping the cause, you're very much hindering it. And it's very, very frustrating.

You come across as quite young. A teenager, or just slightly older. You'll learn about the world in time, son, and you'll realise that grey is much more interesting, and plausible, to black and white. Left-wing politics is not about claiming the Bush and the GOP are the Devil, and the sooner you realise this, the better!
Click to expand...


We have a lot in common, except that I am a right winger. The rest we have in common, except for the tatoos.

The stange thing here is that the traditional liberals/lefties are practically on the same side as Bush/Blair ( Chomsky, counterpunch , Raimondo, antiwar.) This is paralyzing the anti-war movement. You are no lover of Blair. He acts like Bush little obedient poddle.

I as a rightwing european am totally against this war agaisnt the Arabs. It is an Israeli/American war that we have nothing to do with. Blair the traitor is pushing his European cousins into this war for oil. Basicly this is exactly what it is about, they want to control the oil. That is the bottom line.
 
Left-wing politics is not about claiming the Bush and the GOP are the Devil, and the sooner you realise this, the better!
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Man you really aren't from the states are you? :D
 
pagan said:
We have a lot in common, except that I am a right winger.
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I bet you don't even know what that means.

The stange thing here is that the traditional liberals/lefties are practically on the same side as Bush/Blair ( Chomsky, counterpunch , Raimondo, antiwar.) This is paralyzing the anti-war movement. You are no lover of Blair. He acts like Bush little obedient poddle.
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Sorry, WHAT? Noam Chomsky and AntiWar.com are pro-Bush? Are you on drugs?

I as a rightwing european am totally against this war agaisnt the Arabs. It is an Israeli/American war that we have nothing to do with. Blair the traitor is pushing his European cousins into this war for oil. Basicly this is exactly what it is about, they want to control the oil. That is the bottom line.
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Not strictly true, but you're on the right lines at least. This shows thermite brought down the WTC how?
 
mattlodder said:
I bet you don't even know what that means.



Sorry, WHAT? Noam Chomsky and AntiWar.com are pro-Bush? Are you on drugs?



Not strictly true, but you're on the right lines at least. This shows thermite brought down the WTC how?
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For me it basicly means that I am a European nationalist and that I dislike Americans (they are the bad guys) The Arabs and the Palestinians are the victims.
And as you are a Brit that David Irving is an Hero.

Chomsky is a total fraud, this bogus icon for the American left. The stoopid bastid is a common zionist.
 
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JimBenArm said:
Yeah, I live in part of the States where if you say "liberal" they pump a round in the chamber, and look at you funny.
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Yeah, I remember watching quite slack-jawed during the last presidential election, as the Republicans accused the Dems of being "liberal" at every opportunity, whereby the Dems went to great lengths to prove they weren't.

I think that'd be an interesting political science graduate study - how did the word 'liberal' cease to have any real meaning in US politics? It's really absurd.

Our third biggest part are called the "Liberal Democrats", and most European countries have a Liberal party. Canada does too, doesn't it? It describes a very sensible, historically important and credibly defensible form of political engagement. It's so strange to see how the word's used in America.
 
pagan said:
We have a lot in common, except that I am a right winger. The rest we have in common, except for the tatoos.

The stange thing here is that the traditional liberals/lefties are practically on the same side as Bush/Blair ( Chomsky, counterpunch , Raimondo, antiwar.) This is paralyzing the anti-war movement. You are no lover of Blair. He acts like Bush little obedient poddle.

I as a rightwing european am totally against this war agaisnt the Arabs. It is an Israeli/American war that we have nothing to do with. Blair the traitor is pushing his European cousins into this war for oil. Basicly this is exactly what it is about, they what to control the oil. That is the bottom line.
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If anything is paralysing the anti-war movement it is an obsession with this conspiracy fantasy. If you really believe that all of the people who reject your inside job nonsense are on the side of Bush and Blair then you are quite simply an idiot.

The truth movement is the opposite of a political movement - it doesn't campaign on any real issues or try to change the world in a direct way it just spreads the word in a quasi-religious way hoping that once enough people wake up to "the truth" everything will be OK. Like a religious movement it is more concerned with propaganda than facts and evidence and so continues to repeat things that have been shown to be false and to use photographs and quotes selectively and out of context. There is no transparent accountable non-profit organisation that represents the movement: no committees, no elections, no public accounts - just a bunch of self-defined leaders with books and DVDs to sell.

It's not a political movement, it's a pyramid scheme of delusion.

This is an article that I think describes the situation well:

http://www.counterpunch.org/jw11282006.html
 
pagan said:
For me it basicly means that I am a European nationalist and that I dislike Americans (they are the bad guys) The Arabs and the Palestinians are the victims.
And as you are a Brit that David Irving is an Hero.

Chomsky is a total fraud, this bogus icon for the American left. The stoopid basid is a common zionist.
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OK so you mean you're a NAZI?
 
pagan said:
For me it basicly means that I am a European nationalist and that I dislike Americans (they are the bad guys) The Arabs and the Palestinians are the victims.
And as you are a Brit that David Irving is an Hero.

Chomsky is a total fraud, this bogus icon for the American left. The stoopid basid is a common zionist.
Click to expand...

Yep, you're on drugs.

Chomsky's a zionist? Really? You know what a Zionist is? Hell, have you even read any Chomsky?

And you realise that David Irving is a FASCIST? Fascism is a right-wing ideology. How is he a hero of the enlightened left?

It's funny to see how arbitrarily black and white your ideology is. Nationalist? That's not very posi, dude. And America are the "bad guys"? Do you live in a comic book fantasy world?

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ETA: Oh my word... did you mean that Irving is a hero of yours!!?? European nationalist? Pro-Irving? Anti-Semitic? Yep... you're a Nazi.
 
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pagan said:
For me it basicly means that I am a European nationalist and that I dislike Americans (they are the bad guys) The Arabs and the Palestinians are the victims.
And as you are a Brit that David Irving is an Hero.

Chomsky is a total fraud, this bogus icon for the American left. The stoopid bastid is a common zionist.
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David Irving is a disgusting neo-Nazi idiot and so are you.
 
maccy said:
David Irving is a disgusting neo-Nazi idiot and so are you.
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Haha, only waited for that. From the PC guys. You feel good when you can smear your opponent with something Nazi like.

Hey, that is even better then Muslim or Arab.

But, the combo Islamo-fascist that we hear so much these days. Beats everything!!!
 
pagan said:
Haha, only waited for that. From the PC guys. You feel good when you can smear your opponent with something Nazi like.

Hey, that is even better then Muslim or Arab.

But, the combo Islamo-fascist that we hear so much these days. Beats everything!!!
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Did you read a littlebit within the politics subforum?
 
mattlodder said:
Yep, you're on drugs.

Chomsky's a zionist? Really? You know what a Zionist is? Hell, have you even read any Chomsky?

And you realise that David Irving is a FASCIST? Fascism is a right-wing ideology. How is he a hero of the enlightened left?

It's funny to see how arbitrarily black and white your ideology is. Nationalist? That's not very posi, dude. And America are the "bad guys"? Do you live in a comic book fantasy world?

----

ETA: Oh my word... did you mean that Irving is a hero of yours!!?? European nationalist? Pro-Irving? Anti-Semitic? Yep... you're a Nazi.
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You are a European leftie??? And you don't think that the Americans are the bad guys???

How many Iraqis have they killed by now a million? That is pretty bad, that is evil!!!
 
pagan said:
Haha, only waited for that. From the PC guys. You feel good when you can smear your opponent with something Nazi like.

Hey, that is even better then Muslim or Arab.

But, the combo Islamo-fascist that we hear so much these days. Beats everything!!!
Click to expand...
You said David Irving was an hero.
So don't complain that people draw conclusions from this.
 
pagan said:
You are a European leftie??? And you don't think that the Americans are the bad guys???
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I think most people on this forum have outgrown this level of generalization and of good guys-bad guys simplicism.
 
pagan said:
You are a European leftie??? And you don't think that the Americans are the bad guys???

How many Iraqis have they killed by now a million? That is pretty bad, that is evil!!!
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Dear me! Dear me! You can't categorise the world as "bad" and "good", and no-one who had even the slightest idea about politics would do this. Yes, America's actions, particularly concerning their conduct prior to and during the Iraq war, were reprehensible. That's not the same thing as saying they're the bad guys.

David Irving is an anti-Semitic, racist, holocaust denier. How the hell does he qualify as a hero of yours?

As a "leftie" I had qualms about his imprisonment... but really, come on, if you're not a Nazi - how is Mr Irving a hero of yours?
 
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