The 9/11 Conspiracy Facts

And while I understand what you're saying, SD, I do have to disagree with you. There's a report issued by the government in one of the posts in this thread (mjd posted it) that states one of the findings is the intelligence given to the policymakers was neither specific nor detailed enough to allow them to make fully informed decisions. I don't recall the post number, but I'll see if I can locate the link. If that is true, then obviously the administration had SOME of what they needed, but not all of it. I doubt there's a single person within the DoD, administration, or IC that doesn't feel at least somewhat responsible for the events of 9/11, but to place blame when what is needed is action is useless and only hinders security, in my humble opinion.

ETA: Here's the link: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/pdf/fullreport_errata.pdf
 
No, they are not specific and do not all mention inside the US and most do not even mention the US

Lots of them are untrue and unsubstantiated and pure speculation

Again, you do not understand what specific is

July–August 2000 – “Atlanta Rules” used to protect against airplane attack for Republican Convention in Philadelphia and Democratic Convention in New York.

...you were saying?:mgduh
 
And while I understand what you're saying, SD, I do have to disagree with you. There's a report issued by the government in one of the posts in this thread (mjd posted it) that states one of the findings is the intelligence given to the policymakers was neither specific nor detailed enough to allow them to make fully informed decisions. I don't recall the post number, but I'll see if I can locate the link. If that is true, then obviously the administration had SOME of what they needed, but not all of it. I doubt there's a single person within the DoD, administration, or IC that doesn't feel at least somewhat responsible for the events of 9/11, but to place blame when what is needed is action is useless and only hinders security, in my humble opinion.

ETA: Here's the link: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/pdf/fullreport_errata.pdf

We can agree to disagree I suppose. I think Senator Bob Graham who held the highest Democratic position on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and who organized and co-chaired the Joint Inquiry into Intelligence Community Activities Before and After the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001 (House-Senate Congressional Inquiry), would disagree with you as well when he discussed the President's inaccurate statements:
“The first was that it was a surprise, a bolt from the blue. The second was that no one could have imagined such an attack carried out in such a manner. The third, that since no one could have envisaged the use of commercial aircraft as a weapon of mass destruction, no one could be held accountable. The forth was that for all of the devastation, the attack was basically quite simple, requiring nineteen people and a sum of money estimated between $175,000 and $250,000" (p. 112).

In fact, the threats were many, and we knew it was coming ... Graham says there were at least 12 instances in which intelligence found information outlining terrorist plans to use airplanes as weapons, there were at least 12 instances in which the plot could have been interdicted but mistakes by individual people assured it did not happen (and yet not a single person has been held accountable for their failures), and the plot was very complex and resilient. In fact, as Graham notes: “I find a pattern of substantial logistical, personnel, and kills development and financial support consistent with what the President was told in his fateful August 6 briefing. I further suspect that the pattern of such support was more pervasive than is currently known or acknowledged” (p. 113). Graham also says this structure of support was maintained by a nation-state [and no he does not say it was Iraq!].
 
July–August 2000 – “Atlanta Rules” used to protect against airplane attack for Republican Convention in Philadelphia and Democratic Convention in New York.

...you were saying?:mgduh

Again, read what i said

You have posted exactly..em..one from that huge list if yours

we were talking specific, tell me what that means to you

All of the following accounts are documented and can be found within the mainstream media

MSM??

real source please for the claim above, then show me the rest of the specific multiple attacks

i think you also do not know what :mgduh means
 
What would you like me to say, SD? That we chose the wrong course of action? Fine, consider it said. We. Chose. The. Wrong. Course. Of. Action. That is a risk accepted by everyone in any position of authority within the government, military, or intelligence community, and it happens a lot more often than you might know. Just look at the war in Iraq, for God's sake.

Do you understand the concept of arrogance at all? Do you understand that, prior to 9/11, we considered ourselves invincible and immune from attack in our own country FROM FOREIGN SOURCES? And that to some extent, we still do? No one is disputing the OKC bombings, but remember, Tim McVeigh was an American; not an Islamic extremist. And even taking into account that there were attempted attacks from outside sources prior to 9/11, we didn't consider them spectacular; more of a nuisance, since so little consequence resulted from them. I would be the first to admit that losing even one person to a foreign or domestic terrorism attack is going too far, but I'm looking at it from the point of view of someone who lived through that day in 2001, not someone from prior to that event who would likely say, as long as the majority are safe, what do I care if a few people die? That's an oversimplification of the stance they likely held, but I trust you take my meaning; basically, no one considered the relatively small attacks prior to 9/11 of much consequence.

Look at it from this perspective. Prior to 9/11, the last major attack on our soil from an overseas entity was Pearl Harbor. We then went on to so thoroughly spank the Germans and the Japanese that in the process we established this image of ourselves in the rest of the world's eyes as the biggest badasses on the planet. After a while, we started to believe that image (adulation, praise, having everyone look to you every time there's a problem in the world, and that sort of thing will do that to a person). We began to think that no one would challenge our position as the dominant country on the planet, and we grew complacent. Arrogance and complacence are a deadly combination when it comes to security, SD. You ask me if certain security measures might not have prevented 9/11, and my answer is, they absolutely might have, HAD WE HAD THE MENTAL MINDSET TO CARRY THEM OUT. You ask me if we sat on intel and did nothing with security measures to prevent 9/11; my answer is, yes, we did, but once again, our mindset at the time made us incapable of recognizing the threat that existed.

I am honestly at a loss as to why this is so difficult for truthers to understand, I really am. You approach this as though the intelligence community should have interpreted everything from the mindset of 9/11 having already happened, despite KNOWING that the majority of the American people, IC included, were so shocked and appalled that something like this had happened that it's pretty clear they couldn't conceive of it happening prior to it happening. Heck, most of the rest of the FREE WORLD reacted that way; they couldn't believe it happened to us, of all people. Explain to me how we were supposed to be prescient when our own leaders admit to being arrogantly sure that terrorism wasn't that big of a threat prior to 9/11, much to our detriment?

As to the specificity of the warnings; I still maintain that they were not as specific as you all seem to think, and I have asked that question of many people within the IC, and they all agree with me. Do they regret that they didn't spot the patterns? Absolutely they do! They live with this EVERY DAY, that they essentially let nearly 3,000 American citizens die through their own arrogance. We were lemmings, SD, merrily running over the cliff despite the sign that said "DANGER AHEAD". But to suggest, as many truthers do (not saying you are as I don't know what theory you espouse) that we DELIBERATELY sat back and either let nearly three thousand of our own citizens die, or actively PLANNED their deaths, well, THAT, to me, is the more reprehensible action, and is completely indefensible.

I'm a bit confused by this whole "assigning blame and consequences" thing you seem to be on about. Since when was there a legal precedent for someone admitting a mistake and then having someone say, "you admitted that you made a mistake, therefore you are responsible for the deaths of these people"? I'm not a lawyer, but maybe someone on here who is can explain that to you better; I'd suggest you ask LashL if there is a legal precedent for charging someone on the basis of a MISTAKE they made (unless it was a mistake where they admitted they deliberately caused whatever the crime was). As far as I know, there is not. People make mistakes EVERY DAY, a lot with serious consequences, that aren't charged with crimes; why must this be different? And aren't the changes being made within the IC PROOF that the mistakes have been acknowledged and we are TRYING to change things so something like 9/11 doesn't happen again? In essence, we've already tried and convicted ourselves, and now we're carrying out our sentence. Everyone in the IC is in the business of public service and ensuring the safety of the American people. Who would you suggest is at fault for 9/11 then? You can't put an entire community of people on trial, so who do we blame? The leaders? The analysts? The policymakers? Who? Tell me who you think we should blame for this, 'cause I gotta tell you, whoever you think they are, they probably already blame themselves and are doing everything in their power to ensure it won't happen again. They've LEARNED from their mistake, in other words, now let them atone in the way they can. Ultimately, the person at fault for 9/11 is not in this country. Yes, in a way, we let it happen, but we didn't put the idea in Osama's head; Khalid Sheik Mohammed did, and then Osama ran with it. We've got KSM at least, so you've got one of the culprits. Why not focus your attention on what you think we should sentence him to, instead of trying to blame the adminstration or the IC for their mistakes.

Wow. That's a lot of words. ;)

Seriously, nice posts since you began your run, here.

I am also a 35D

Again, Belz... must refrain from immature comments...
 
Again, read what i said

You have posted exactly..em..one from that huge list if yours

we were talking specific, tell me what that means to you



MSM??

real source please for the claim above, then show me the rest of the specific multiple attacks

i think you also do not know what :mgduh means

Sorry, but I'm not going to encourage laziness on your part.
You are right, you did state not "all" of them gave specific warnings. But enough of them did in my opinion to call for increased security measures at airports.
Specific to me includes hijackers using planes against the continental United States.
My point is years prior to 9/11 and in the months leading up to 9/11, they prepared for attacks against targets in the U.S. using airplanes as weapons.
 
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SD: All right then, we agree to disagree, but I would like to note that I don't entirely disagree with Graham; I just don't think things were as specific and detailed as he seems to be intimating. There's a lot more that goes into something like this that neither of us have seen.

Belz: *thwap* Mind OUT of the gutter, young man! :D
 
SD: All right then, we agree to disagree, but I would like to note that I don't entirely disagree with Graham; I just don't think things were as specific and detailed as he seems to be intimating. There's a lot more that goes into something like this that neither of us have seen.

Belz: *thwap* Mind OUT of the gutter, young man! :D

I guess if anyone would know, it would be a Committee member and a Co-Chair.

BTW, I forgot to thank you for serving this great country of ours. I only wish you had better leadership from the Commander-In-Chief.
 
Question though. The Committee member and Co-chair gets the finished product, after the analysts and report writers are through with it. If the analysts and report writers all say that the items weren't that specific, I have to wonder why the committee member would. Just a thought.

And you're welcome for the service; it's one of the better decisions I've made in my life, in my opinion (although my mother might disagree).
 
Sorry, but I'm not going to encourage laziness on your part.
You are right, you did state not "all" of them gave specific warnings. But enough of them did in my opinion to call for increased security measures at airports.
Specific to me includes hijackers using planes against the continental United States. My point is years prior to 9/11 and in the months leading up to 9/11, they prepared for attacks against targets in the U.S. using airplanes as weapons.

And exactly how many of those warnings are in your posts and how specific are they? I count about 6 up to August 2001 and none of them are specific threats they are "vague" and "suggestions" and "uncorroborated" and "speculation"

If you are going to post info like this you must link it to sources not one site with a load of claims

And "they" = Who?

Also a lot of those quotes are false and misleading and I am sure this is not what you intended
 
And exactly how many of those warnings are in your posts and how specific are they? I count about 6 up to August 2001 and none of them are specific threats they are "vague" and "suggestions" and "uncorroborated" and "speculation"

If you are going to post info like this you must link it to sources not one site with a load of claims

And "they" = Who?

Also a lot of those quotes are false and misleading and I am sure this is not what you intended

I don't have to do anything per your request, thank you. But because you insist on being lazy, you can start here to verify each claim.

What quotes are false and misleading?

Who are "they"? Now this is a valid question. The Administration.
 
Is this a specific enough warning?

September 1999: US Report Predicts Spectacular Attack on Washington
Edit event

A report prepared for US intelligence titled the “Sociology and Psychology of Terrorism” is completed. It states, “Al-Qaeda’s expected retaliation for the US cruise missile attack… could take several forms of terrorist attack in the nation’s capital. Al-Qaeda could detonate a Chechen-type building-buster bomb at a federal building. Suicide bomber(s) belonging to al-Qaeda’s Martyrdom Battalion could crash-land an aircraft packed with high explosives (C-4 and Semtex) into the Pentagon, the headquarters of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or the White House. Whatever form an attack may take, bin Laden will most likely retaliate in a spectacular way.” The report is by the National Intelligence Council, which advises the president and US intelligence on emerging threats.[Associated Press, 4/18/2002]
 
SD, where does it say airliners on that statement? Remember, the original plan was to hijack airliners and blow them up.
 
It is important to remember that hindsight is 20/20. It is easy to go back through all the intelligence that was gathered and separate the wheat from the chaff. Of coarse it all is plain as day now, prior to 9/11, not so much.
 
I don't have to do anything per your request, thank you. But because you insist on being lazy, you can start here to verify each claim.

What quotes are false and misleading?

Who are "they"? Now this is a valid question. The Administration.

The very first one on that page is misleading, the Paris one

I'll let you figure out why and research it porperly or do you want me to do it before you get a chance to change your tune?

also

they prepared for attacks against targets in the U.S. using airplanes as weapons.

they = administration??????

what are you on about??
 
Is this a specific enough warning?

September 1999: US Report Predicts Spectacular Attack on Washington
Edit event

A report prepared for US intelligence titled the “Sociology and Psychology of Terrorism” is completed. It states, “Al-Qaeda’s expected retaliation for the US cruise missile attack… could take several forms of terrorist attack in the nation’s capital. Al-Qaeda could detonate a Chechen-type building-buster bomb at a federal building. Suicide bomber(s) belonging to al-Qaeda’s Martyrdom Battalion could crash-land an aircraft packed with high explosives (C-4 and Semtex) into the Pentagon, the headquarters of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or the White House. Whatever form an attack may take, bin Laden will most likely retaliate in a spectacular way.” The report is by the National Intelligence Council, which advises the president and US intelligence on emerging threats.[Associated Press, 4/18/2002]

Ok all the bolded parts show why it is not specific

No mention of hijack

No mention of commercial airliner

No mention of WTC

No mention of New York

Mentions HE (not used 911)

Mentions CIA (not hit 911)

Mentions White House (not hit 911)

Mentions "several forms"

Mentions "whatever form"

Not really specific at all is it?

More so with hindsight though eh? Luxury we have now
 

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