The 9/11 Conspiracy Facts

Ok...


Now you've just contradicted yourself. You can't say the FBI knew about, but did not pursue the al Qaeda terrorists in the US because they didn't get explicit permission from Bush to do so. The FBI doesn't work that way...


Your inability to understand how badly you are failing here in no way negates the fact that you are failing here in a big way.
That is not the point. FBI agents did go and investigate certain things, but were prevented from taking any concrete measures by people higher up. I, since the simple rebuttal is "intel failures are normal", am looking just at Bush for the moment, and what he did.

So, he was told that there were AQ cells in the US, plotting a terror attack. What did he do in response. And why.
 
Jocce said:
You're still twisting the wording to reflect your own interpretation. Nowhere in PNAC is this called for. It's hard to take you seriously when you keep doing that.


This has been dealt with. You responded. I responded back. If you want to contest the point, then respond back again (=debate), rather than just repeating your point.

The only thing you said was something to the effect of "of course it's better if it happens sooner than later and therefor 911 was propitious to plan". I am merely pointing out that you state a lot of personal opinion as facts in this thread...also.
 
Or has been fully proved. Which it has not.
Whether it has been fully proved or not gets evinced by its being fully contested. Until that has been done, it prevails. Si the ball is in your (pl) court
 
The only thing you said was something to the effect of "of course it's better if it happens sooner than later and therefor 911 was propitious to plan". I am merely pointing out that you state a lot of personal opinion as facts in this thread...also.
No i dont. I have outlined very specifically why this is the case, and taken much time over it too, as you well know. Please go back and contest it, or else, leave it uncontested, as I have just detailed.
 
A simple note, but MJD, you've quoted me as aggle-rithm in your reply.


If Tenet wasn't in on it how would it work? Did they just do nothing at the CIA? The intel failures on thwarting the actual plan happened at very low levels. How many people do you need to run this conspiracy? Other conspiracies (such as Iran-Contra) were exposed rather quickly.
Sorry abot the quote.

In terms of Tenet, all that hd to be done, was what was done- he collates th intel, delivers it to the principals, who iggnore it.

The rest of your questions all relate to what would be discovered by investigation, and have nothing to do with whether it was an inside job or not.
 
I think I may have found the part being referenced possibly. but that talks about Pearl Harbor, not 9/11. And that chapter is talking about getting new technology to be better prepared for that type of event. So I am confused as to what the issue is here.

I'm looking at a PDF called "Building America's Defenses", so it could be I am looking at the wrong paper.

It's basically saying that we need to update our technology and get around the problem which is that making such a transformation takes a long time short of some big event happening. It's not saying anything about creating such an event, it's saying we shouldn't wait for such an event to make things happen faster.

The big point being keeping the most up to date technology without wasting money.
It is the right paper. Please read the whole thing. It doesnt refer to "911" because it was written a yr in advance.

To gain elucidation on the paper, read http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84473&page=3
 
Where has this been denied? Hmmm.....



Now why would you have challenged me on "how I knew this", if you agreed with it? It must be so hard being misinformed, you forget where your stance should be....anyhoo, so we agree the defense transformation would have occurred regardless of the occurrence of 9/11.

Good. So you agree that I didnt say that it wouldnt have happened. I agree that you think it would have happened, nothing more. It is, of course, completely irrelevant whether you think this or, not, as I shall come to...

Now, what exactly happened sooner? Please compare and contrast nuclear policy and global missile defense with Clinton National Security policy, outline the differences and when they occurred. Also, when exactly was Army Space Command established? Who was President then? What exactly was the transformation that occurred sooner than it would have (regardless as we both agree) with regard to Space? Again, please reference pre-2001 national security strategy documents in your response. Thanks, cheers! (You may learn something yet!)

Errr... buddy, not that I will write it off, but the chances of me learning anything of note from you, are probably slim to none. The point, that should not be very hard to miss, is that PNAC do not believe that such would happen sooner, absent a catastrophic and catalysing event, hence why they wrote it in their doc. So, what you are arguing, is that PNAC were wrong. This may be. I dont care. The only fact that matters is that they thought it, and thus they thought that a new PH would be propitious to policy. End.
 
A parallel to PNAC: A real group, that I will rename BASE, released several "white papers" saying that they desired to cause the US to become entangled in multiple long term military engagements in the mideast, thus weakening America's ability to control political realities in the region and allowing BASE to strike US military assets via asymmetric means. BASE hopes to use mideast turmoil to create a large number of failed states which can then become controlled under a larger government more suitable to BASE's idiology. BASE also released a "white paper" calling for large scale attacks against American interests.

BASE found the 9/11 attacks completely propitious to their ends, and I conclude probably would have done everything they could to cause 9/11 to happen.

Casually, I would say BASE is a much more likely force behind 9/11 than PNAC.
sorry, who the hell is base?
 
Yes the document tells us what is going to be done to make the 21st Century
an American one. But here is your plausibility problem;



You are saying this snippet here is the heart of the matter of your hubris...i.e. some of the signatories of this document were already intending to allow a catastrophic and catalyzing occurrence to happen, that they were formulating design, possibly terrorism, to happen on American soil, of course keeping in mind that many of these signatories are/were part and parcel of the Bush Administration?
I'll wait for your answer to respond
"Hubris"?

I am saying that this shows that a catastrophic and catalysing event was deemed propitious to policy by a significant number of neo cons who would be charged with running and protecting the US on and up to 911. That is all. (I have said this many times btw)
 
I agree, that's very well put, and knocks the heck out of the retarded PNAC argument. Pity that some people will never stop to consider this, simply because it doesn't reinforce their own biases.
riiiight....
 
Yes sure. 2nd page of ch 5, 1st full para.

That is all you need to understand for now. Tell me when you have.

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor. Domestic politics and industrial policy will shape the pace and content of transformation as much as the requirements of current missions.

A decision to suspend or terminate aircraft carrier production, as recommended by this report and as justified by the clear direction of military technology, will cause great upheaval. Likewise, systems entering production today - the F-22 fighter, for example - will be in service inventories for decades to come. Wise management of this process will consist in large measure of figuring out the right moments to halt production of current-paradigm weapons and shift to radically new designs. The expense associated with some programs can make them roadblocks to the larger process of transformation - the Joint Strike Fighter program, at a total of approximately $200 billion, seems an unwise investment. Thus, this report advocates a two-stage process of change - transition and transformation - over the coming decades."

For your convenience i bolded some parts that points out some reasons why you would sometimes want a slower process. I also took the liberty to italize (sp.) and bold the last line which tells what this report actually recommends/calls for/deems propituous to plan.

Anything else is speculation on your part that they are lying when they say they prefer a process of change rather than an immediate transformation.
 
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The list you supplied, the one with the forewarnings, contains information from declassified documents. (Yes, I Googled "Paul Thompson's 911 Timeline-> Warning Signs", like you said). To me this conveys that the documents were probably classified at some point.

U have qualified this later, so I wont bother.

I'll be the first to admit that my credulity is lacking in favour of a US government conspiracy.
However, demanding a new investigation after the one that has brought to light the very list of 'suspect' forewarnings you base your demand on, seems a bit odd.

But they didnt. Thats why you dont know most of them. The timeline is msm reports. My stuff comes from here and there. Moreover, there is a difference between stating the facts, and dealing with them. So for instance one thing the Comm dealt with was the fact that the system was "blinking red", and Bush was warned 40 times, but did nothing. Then silence. This is not dealt with, this is not criticised, this is not investigated, it is left to be forgotten about; an uncomfortable silence. This should not happen in a report into the attacks.

But say I go along with the fact that the failure to prevent the 9/11 attacks is suspect, what is your reason to don't trust the previous investigators to come to the conclusion you come to?

As above- they havent touched some of the most important facts (e.g. the OBL handover), and they havent dealt with any of the others.

Take a wild guess. Even better, I'll save you the effort: Normal people don't do that. The odds that the conspirators were able to recruit enough sociopaths among the ranks of government agencies to pull off such a conspiracy and not screw up are vanishingly small.

Again, that is completely untrue. The US government has been responsible for the murder of literally millions of people since 1945; leaders like Carter, Truman, Clinton, Kennedey- you deem these people to be "sociopaths"? These people come across as the most normal, genteel, respectable politicians... but since government is a power centre, the propensity to sacrifice human life, and do immoral things, is inherent. To quote Hans Morgenthau, the father of post war US diplomacy:

The statesman must think in terms of the national interest, conceived as power among other powers. The popular mind, unaware of the fine distinctions of the statesman’s thinking, reasons more often than not in the simple moralistic and legalistic terms of absolute good and absolute evil."[

Put this principle in neo con hands, and it gets a rocket boost.

Finally, to frame this in a topical situation, you have the PNAC doc, which was written/co signed by maybe up to 60 people, all endorsing this view as to the propitousness of a catastrophic attack on ths US for geo politics. So where is the difficulty in keeping a secret, when you already have so many people who believe in it?

In fact, you clearly contend that they totally screwed up their homicidal conspiracy by both publically announcing their plans beforehand and publishing the screw-ups afterward. I contend that they just screwed up their intelligence gathering.
Who's arguing from incredulity here?

No, they didnt screw it up, because the public is sufficicently cowed to accept any subterfuge in order to not have to believe that their government is guilty of this; even by arguing that "911 was not a new PH"; or that WTC7 was not imploded (more on that later, of course). So there was no screw up; politicians know the way the public mind works very well. To quote Bernays:

No serious sociologist any longer believes that the voice of the people expresses any divine or specially wise and lofty idea. The voice of the people expresses the mind of the people, and that mind is made up for it by the group leaders in whom it believes and by those persons who understand the manipulation of public opinion. It is composed of inherited prejudices and symbols and cliches and verbal formulas supplied to them by the leaders.

But I think I see what kind of conspiracy you think may have happened. It would have to be a conspiracy where the conspirators
1. recruit some maniacs to fly aircraft into buildings or
2. allow existing maniacs to fly their airplanes into buildings, because they were going to anyway.

Am I right?

For the moment, assume 2.
:rolleyes:


I can't tell without knowing who exactly got the warnings, or knowing how the different intelligence agencies communicate with eachother, or how many unrelated warnings about other terror attacks with trains, car bombs, ships, dirty nukes, anthrax, small pox, doomsday machines or space lasers gave more specific information and demanded more immediate action at the time.
Do you?

Ok, well dont worry about that. Just think about Bush/Cheney et al. What did they do and why.
 
Whether it has been fully proved or not gets evinced by its being fully contested. Until that has been done, it prevails. Si the ball is in your (pl) court
The ball is actually in your court. We can do this forever and there will still be no investigation. These points have been beaten to death by hundreds of people. No amount of speculation is ever going to change the fact that the PNAC does not connect to 9/11.
 
A parallel to PNAC: A real group, that I will rename BASE, released several "white papers" saying that they desired to cause the US to become entangled in multiple long term military engagements in the mideast, thus weakening America's ability to control political realities in the region and allowing BASE to strike US military assets via asymmetric means. BASE hopes to use mideast turmoil to create a large number of failed states which can then become controlled under a larger government more suitable to BASE's idiology. BASE also released a "white paper" calling for large scale attacks against American interests.

BASE found the 9/11 attacks completely propitious to their ends, and I conclude probably would have done everything they could to cause 9/11 to happen.

Casually, I would say BASE is a much more likely force behind 9/11 than PNAC.
Right. So "BASE" have a plan to do all this. How is this relevant? I dont dispute their involvement, nor their assuming a large weight of guilt. We all know that. Of course, this does not mean anything about PNAC/Bush admin, which is what the argument relates to.
 
The ball is actually in your court. We can do this forever and there will still be no investigation. These points have been beaten to death by hundreds of people. No amount of speculation is ever going to change the fact that the PNAC does not connect to 9/11.
Hahaha...its not speculation, its debate my friend. You can either engage in it, or not. Sitting there saying "it didnt happen, your wrong", just wastes your time more than anyone else.
 
Some additions to my latest post, mjd.

I must admit that I found only one declassified document here. The point however stands that intelligence information is always classified at some point. The media only get what they get because someone in the intelligence industry wants them to.

I also found this interesting. Behind this snippet:If you read the Senate report Hill #1 you will encounter this in their concluding remarks:
and

Is the senate committee in on it too? Or are they just not intelligent enough to see these screw ups for what you think they are?

Ook?
As above, just focus on Bush et al
 

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