The 9/11 Conspiracy Facts

In the sense that you are quoting from these sources, sure.

The only reason why you think it's "quite simple" is because of your inability to see it any other way. Many of us have pointed you in other directions, but you refuse to even look. In other words, your position is due to poor imagination.

Please give me an example of where i have "refused to look"

So far you have not defended your conclusion.

No, you ARE speculating. You are speculating about the PNAC's motives and preferences, you are speculating about the "propitiousness" of 9/11, and you are speculating about the similarities between Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

To give 1 example, I am interpreting the document to draw simple conclusions. To state that people would want a revolutionary, wonderful change to happen sooner or later is speculative, is, well, a bit silly I would say. Not least for the reason that i could sat to draw the opposite conclusion is speculative. Please show me how that isnt.

How would letting it happen show anything about "propititiousness" ??

Ha... because if it wasnt propitious, they would have stopped it. You know, stopped it?

Such an investigation has already been made.

And the gross inadequacies of it have been mentioned by both the people instrumental in calling for it, as well as the people who wrote it. I have dealt with this b4; you must have been "refusing to look".
 
But not catalysing in the way the PNAC discussed it.

No; it just catalysed everything they asked for.


Please quote the whole sentence in context; then you wont have to ask such a question.

And you think that throughout history, people have not spoken about these things when threatened ? That seems monstrously naive.

Who is threatening them? Who are these people that are to be threatened?

Yeah, JFK CTers say the same thing 45 years later.

No expert on this, but heard of E Howard Hunt?
 
Liar. They never stated it was a need. Not even close.

I love the way I'm asked to move on from a topic that I state hasnt been addressed properly (by you guys), and then we have to come back to it since it hasnt been addressed properly.

"To state" does not necessarily mean to be present in writing; something can be stated very clearly in not so many words. I.e. if someone says 2x is good, and x can happen much much sooner with y", then they are deeming y propitious. This is quite elementary.

ONLY in the case of a conspiracy ? Really ? Are you saying that "cave monkeys" can't possibly crash airliners into skyscrapers because the US is invincible unless it allows itself to get hurt ? Those terrorists are much smarter and much more organised than you think.

Please read, and think, before you post. I did not say that 9/11 could only have happened in case of a conspiracy. God, after 20 pages we have finally descended to SLC levels. I was referring to the sequence of events that I carefully detailed at the top of this section, which you have not bothered to read properly. Go read it.

Which is NOT what they were talking about when refering to Pearl Harbor.

Which was?

You're continuing to add words that aren't there.

Like what?
 
Rebuilding America's Defenses is referring to a catastrophic event in the context of defense transformation, not merely catastrophic in a general sense. The destruction of "some ships" drove the tactical innovation that led to victory and the development of current naval doctrine. A natural disaster may be a catastrophic event, but it will hardly spur defense transformation now, will it?

All wrong. The event that is called for is one which has 2 distinct qualities: a) catastrophic, and b) catalysing. A tsunami does fit one half of the equation, which is why PNAC modified it with the second half, catalysing. The absurdity of your statement "a catastrophic event in the context of defense transformation" illustrates this nicely- they are calling for an event that is catastrophic (this is a adjective that can sit on its own), and catalysing (this cannot- catalysing of what?- hence we can safely infer militarily catalyzing).

This should only have taken a couple of seconds thought.

Horribly wrong. America has used pre-emption, or prevention, as justification for numerous military actions since the early 1800's. The "Bush Doctrine" is re-packaged and re-emphasized foreign policy specifically targeted to terrorism supporters, but the United States has used pre-emption as a national security strategy for over one hundred ninety years.

I hope you are not being serious about the "terrorism supporters" statement...

In any case, yes, it is not something "new", granted; however, it is something renewed, at least in terms of governmental policy, which is, in fact, the point. It is taking the US in a different direction, radically different if you examine the whole picture, than it was going before. If you have read what I linked you to, you will see this too.

It is exactly what defense strategists have been advocating since the mid-1990's. What is your point?

What the hell does this matter? Who cares one jot about what strategists have been saying- it is about implementation, and there is a reason why countries havent been invaded and occupied arbitrarilty, why space hasnt been militarised, why cyberspace hasnt been transformed into a defense tool, why nuclear strategy hasnt taken the direction it is taking now for so long, why US troops havent been redeployed to the stations they are now for so long, why the DoD hasnt been transformed with the basis that it is now etc etc etc.

If you have read the links, you will see that it is the WOT/911/RAD that is the premise upon which these strategies are now being pursued, not the words of some military strategist.

And yet you do not. Again, let me reiterate - catastrophic in terms of loss of live does not drive defense transformation. If it did, the nations affected by the tsunami would be currently undergoing defense transformation, right?They are not.

As above. The tsunami was a catastrophic event, but not a catalysing one. You should understand the import of the second adjective, rather than having it subsumed by the 1st.

Secondly, we are not talking solely about catalyzing, we are talking about catalyzing defense transformation. The transformation of the DoD was underway prior to 911. 911 did not drive that process.

The DoD is just one example, and the fact that its transformation was underway does not affect the fact that it is now being pursued under the aegis of the WOT. As you will not need me to explain to you, this will almost certainly give the transformation a bit of a shot in the arm. Understand the difference betweem something being implemented because some people think it is advisable policy, and because people think we in a neverending catastrophic war against and implacable, renewable enemy.

I say 911 was not catalyzing for defense transformation because it is true. The changes called for in the PNAC document were not new or revolutionary; they were what strategists had been saying from 1989 on.

The implementation of them was new; please understand this very simple point.

911 was not the catalyst for those changes; they would have occurred regardless.

a) How do you know this?
b) Why do u think they woudl have been pursued with the vigour that they are now with this cataclysmic "war" as its justification?

911, although catastrophic in many ways, was not catastrophic in any way that affected the defense transformation that was already underway.

As above, in every sense.
 
Not even close. The PNAC was strictly talking about military action. 9/11 was not.

What??? Excuse me, please show me where PNAC were talking "strictly about military action", truly this is self deception of the worst kind.


Just because we ended up taking military action does not mean that 9/11 was the event the PNAC was referring to.

It was catastrophic, and it catalysed what they asked for. So how not?

Especially since it did not speed up the time line to achieve the goals that the PNAC wanted to achieve any more than the "catastrophic and catalyzing" events of the USS Cole and the Kenya bombings did.

How did such attacks cause any sort of military transformation?

So you're logic is horrendously flawed.

???

U r a comedian?

We were already threatening war with the Taliban for supporting OBL and Al Qaeda prior to 9/11. All 9/11 did was force us to make good on our threat.

Haha.. well, you were also offering them a "carpet of gold", in return for cooperation over strategic resources, so... go figure.

http://archive.democrats.com/view.cfm?id=5166
 
Gentlemen and ladies:
We stand in the shadow of a true scholar in Augustine.
Hats off, please.
Well done, Augustine!

???

ETA- Actually, though I didnt think I would say this b4 joining, by jref standards, u might be correct!
 
It will take me a long time to catch up on the thread. But is someone trying to imply that the PNAC web site is evidence of a conspiracy again?
 
It's the conclusion you seem to have reached, perhaps not because of this argument alone, but since you're not advancing any new ones I thought I'd go ahead and say what I said.

Err... there's 2500 words on foreknowledge at the top of this section. Feel free to address it whenever you choose (familiar pattern starting again...)

This implies however that you think this is a fairly probable scenario, which I think is, well, bonkers, really.
The first reason being that making people indiscriminately kill thousands of their countymen is not a very easy thing to do or keep quiet.

Err... how do you know?

Secondly, in the case of september 11th, the defenses that needed to be overcome were metal detector gates and a handful of unarmed civilians, the most important of whom had instructions to meet the demands of hijackers and keep the passengers calm.

But this is just laughable. You seriously think that that is all that is standing in the way of any random person and 9/11? What the hell do u think the intel industry is for?
 
You have to establish the "and only in" part of that argument. Otherwise, as you know, even if your other premises are accepted, any attempt to conclude that a conspiracy exists, from those statements, would be a simple affirming the consequent logical fallacy. (A conspiracy would cause X to happen, X happened, therefore a conspiracy exists.)

So, everything hinges on the "...and only in..." part of that argument. You must show that 9/11 could not have happened without a conspiracy. To do that you must, at the very least, show that conspirators in the U.S. Government performed specific acts that caused or allowed 9/11 to happen.

If you can't do that, your argument is a logical fallacy that goes nowhere.

And if by some chance you can do it, then you have no need of your speculative "plausible scenario" regarding PNAC, you'd have actual evidence of a conspiracy.

So, after all this arguing about whether or not 9/11 is like Pearl Harbor and whether or not PNAC wanted such an event to happen, you're back in the same boat with every other truther: needing to show evidence of what the conspirators did, in order for your argument to go anywhere.

Congratulations. After 20 pages of arguing, you've reached Square One.

Respectfully,
Myriad

This'll be quick- please read the post to which you are replying first. Then reply.
 
How did such attacks cause any sort of military transformation?
It didn't, and if you had any sort of reading comprehension abilities you'd have seen that lapman says they didn't, and neither did 9/11 and thus your goofy, tortured interpretation of one line of the PNAC document is fatally flawed.
 
It will take me a long time to catch up on the thread. But is someone trying to imply that the PNAC web site is evidence of a conspiracy again?
Errr... well 1stly its not their "website" Mr Clueless, but their biennial policy white paper.
2ndly, it is evidence of their deeming of a catastrophic and catalysing event as being propitious to policy, which gives us nothing more than a framework within which to proceed.
We are now dealing with foreknowledge. Please join in.
 
It didn't, and if you had any sort of reading comprehension abilities you'd have seen that lapman says they didn't, and neither did 9/11 and thus your goofy, tortured interpretation of one line of the PNAC document is fatally flawed.
I think you might mean "tortuous", but never mind.

The point is that if that is the case, then the attacks on the Cole etc were not catalysing. This is pretty simple.
 
But this is just laughable. You seriously think that that is all that is standing in the way of any random person and 9/11? What the hell do u think the intel industry is for?
Actually, the metal detectors weren't even standing in the way because small knives such as those used by the hijackers were allowed on planes prior to 9/11 - that's why they used them. The only things standing in the hijackers way was the cabin crew who were trained to cooperate with hijackers and negotiate upon landing, and the passengers who were told to sit tight because a bomb was on board. The cat was let out of the bag on Flight 93, and the passengers did thwart that attack, though the effort proved fatal to them.

You're failing miserably here also mjd1982... :rolleyes:
 
mjd1982, I asked you two specific questions in my post 752

How do you know the government could "fairly easily connive" in this case? How many people would have to have been subverted? What if some of them said "no?"


Are you advocating LIHOP or MIHOP? If LIHOP, how could "they" affect the timing of the attack to make it right before the QDR?? If MIHOP, why would there have been any actionable warnings?? Please explain this apparent contradiction in your "theory."


Please respond.
 
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I think you might mean "tortuous", but never mind.
No, I used it correctly.

Main Entry: 2torture
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): tor·tured; tor·tur·ing /'torch-ri[ng], 'tor-ch&-/
1 : to cause intense suffering to : [SIZE=-1]TORMENT[/SIZE]
2 : to punish or coerce by inflicting excruciating pain
3 : to twist or wrench out of shape : [SIZE=-1]DISTORT[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]WARP[/SIZE]
synonym see [SIZE=-1]AFFLICT[/SIZE]
- tor·tur·er /'tor-ch&r-&r/ noun

Definition 3 btw mjd1982.
 
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This'll be quick- please read the post to which you are replying first. Then reply.

Okay.

No, the point of the plausible scenario was to show what might plausibly happen in, and only in, the case of a conspiracy. And then, that this is precisely what has happened.

You have to establish the "and only in" part of that argument. Otherwise, as you know, even if your other premises are accepted, any attempt to conclude that a conspiracy exists, from those statements, would be a simple affirming the consequent logical fallacy. (A conspiracy would cause X to happen, X happened, therefore a conspiracy exists.)

So, everything hinges on the "...and only in..." part of that argument. You must show that 9/11 could not have happened without a conspiracy. To do that you must, at the very least, show that conspirators in the U.S. Government performed specific acts that caused or allowed 9/11 to happen.

If you can't do that, your argument is a logical fallacy that goes nowhere.

And if by some chance you can do it, then you have no need of your speculative "plausible scenario" regarding PNAC, you'd have actual evidence of a conspiracy.

So, after all this arguing about whether or not 9/11 is like Pearl Harbor and whether or not PNAC wanted such an event to happen, you're back in the same boat with every other truther: needing to show evidence of what the conspirators did, in order for your argument to go anywhere.

Congratulations. After 20 21 pages of arguing, you've reached you're still on Square One.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 

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