The 9/11 Conspiracy Facts

I hope you're not arguing that your interpretation of the PNAC is a "premise" we need to establish. If so, you're actually admitting that you won't continue until we agree with you. That would be quite ballsy of you, but I hope it's not what you mean, mjd.

Goodness, I certainly hope that his specific interpretation of the PNAC isn't critical to his point about 911.

If that's the case it reminds me of the thread that went 20 pages about the definition of 'around'...
 
In this case, it fortunately doesn't matter whether you agree or not. A debate, by defintion, is a contest of opposing viewpoints. Agreement is not required at all, nor is "establishing premises." You say your thing, everyone comments, and says their thing. Back and forth until everyone gets sick of it and leaves, or one side relents, or time runs out.

I hope you're not arguing that your interpretation of the PNAC is a "premise" we need to establish. If so, you're actually admitting that you won't continue until we agree with you. That would be quite ballsy of you, but I hope it's not what you mean, mjd.

No, you have misunderstood. The premise that would be established would not have to be my point about PNAC. It could be yours. It is something I am seeking to establish, true. But if people want to come out and illustrate how my argument is wrong, then I am waiting, and imploring them, to do so, and have been for a long time. If they succeed, then that is fine.
 
Goodness, I certainly hope that his specific interpretation of the PNAC isn't critical to his point about 911.

If that's the case it reminds me of the thread that went 20 pages about the definition of 'around'...
My specific interpretation...

Please, if this is so simple, go and contest it. It's #493, you would be one of the 1st.
 
Think. The chances of a new PH happening, absent gov complicity are remote. It is a once in a lifetime event. The chances of it happening, absent gov complicity, when said gov has, effectively stated its propitiousness only months earlier, is now close to inconceivable. And finally, the chances of all this happening at the most useful time for the gov; not only 9 months in, thus allowing the gov 3 or 7 years to pursue the policy said PH was going to catalyse; but also, as the document states quite clearly, it happens crucially just before the 2001 QDR, a crucial moment since it is when the new president makes the choice of whether to “increase military spending to preserve American geopolitical leadership, or (to) pull back from the security commitments that are the measure of America’s position as the world’s sole superpower and the final guarantee of security, democratic freedoms and individual political rights.” In short, everything that neo-conservative policy stands for. The chances of this all being a coincidence, though existing, are almost too small to be taken seriously. Hence, the chances of 9/11 having happened absent government complicity, are equally almost too small to be taken seriously. So already we have built a pretty robust case for the goal of the Truth Movement. But in any case, take such chances seriously we shall, and we shall have a look at the rest of the evidence.

This is the thrust of your arguments about the PNAC, from your OP. Note that this is just an extended argument from incredulity. You find it unlikely that such events would happen in, as you see it, such a beneficial order for the government. You say this alone builds a "robust case" for the Truth Movement.

However, this says absolutely nothing. While the probability of an event such as 9/11 occurring is indeed extremely low, the fact is that it did occur. Thus, any arguments about its liklihood are essentially worthless. The probability of all events that have already occurred is 1. Even if the probability of the events happening in sequence again would 1 in a trillion, the point is that those events did occur.

This is why I say that, absent other evidence, this means nothing. For you to say things like this it implies that you don't work with probability much, and certainly not with risk probability. The simple point is that ◊◊◊◊ happens. On a long enough time line, or with a big enough sample, you're very likely to see a few highly improbable events.

Even something, as so say, as improbable as someone alluding to a catalysing event, having the power to theoretically create it (or allow it to happen) and, just a few months later, there it is!

But so what? It doesn't prove anything. It doesn't even mean anything. No more than someone really needing money and winning to lottery the next day. It's simply a coincidence. It's not like you found damning evidence - say, a memo talking about staging terrorist attacks or something.

So, if you don't mind, could you move on to the next point? Us spectators are getting bored, and we keep having to get our hands dirty and chip our nails and stuff.

ETA: Did I address your argument sufficiently for your liking, mjd? It appears that it's essentially a gussied-up argument-from-incredulity, or perhaps you might call it an argument-from-improbability. Unless you can dig up something more direct, all you're left with is "gee whiz, this was really unlikely and therefore suspicious." And you're claiming that this is important to your point? Oy.
 
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No, you have misunderstood. The premise that would be established would not have to be my point about PNAC. It could be yours. It is something I am seeking to establish, true. But if people want to come out and illustrate how my argument is wrong, then I am waiting, and imploring them, to do so, and have been for a long time. If they succeed, then that is fine.

This has been done. Twice by me. What more do you want?
 
Bravo for (semi) addressing the point, you are now in an elite club.

Sorry. You don't get to brand people, here.

We have the 2nd person in ~200 posts who has decided to directly contest the points.

More like, the 2nd who has directly contested your points and who you decided to respond to.

Ok. So we have it. 9/11 was a catastrophic and catalysing event. PNAC state that the transformation will be slow absent a catastrophic and catalysing event. So please tell me how PNAC were not referring to that.

Non sequitur. The fact that they were talking about a certain type of event, and 9/11 was of that type, even if I were to agree, would not mean that they refered specifically to 9/11.
 
In this case, it fortunately doesn't matter whether you agree or not. A debate, by defintion, is a contest of opposing viewpoints. Agreement is not required at all, nor is "establishing premises." You say your thing, everyone comments, and says their thing. Back and forth until everyone gets sick of it and leaves, or one side relents, or time runs out.

I hope you're not arguing that your interpretation of the PNAC is a "premise" we need to establish. If so, you're actually admitting that you won't continue until we agree with you. That would be quite ballsy of you, but I hope it's not what you mean, mjd.

I could be wrong, but it seems that he is saying this.

MJD, no offense...really, your response to my post was that you have asked people to reply to your post 416 & 419 (my bad for saying reread)...These two posts are saying what you have been saying all along, are they not?

To me, and I don't know much about military stuff (hence me saying "military stuff") and I had to read the PNAC doc (wow, was that...brutal), it is clear in all of the posts, even the ones not directly replying to #416 or #419, what the other people are trying to say that disagrees with what you are saying.

You are asking people to respond to #416 and/or #419. They haven't directly quoted and replied to #416 and/or #419, BUT...they HAVE addressed those issues throughout this thread. I, the feeble minded about this "military stuff", have even figured out what they are saying. They have provided enough information for me, the feeble mind, to understand. I have nothing to offer in this debate, because I don't know enough to add any additional information.

However, I do know that this has been beat to death. The others just don't agree with you and have given reason. Having said that, why can't you just move on to the next part? Take a different approach, provide additional information to prove the point you are trying to make because this is going nowhere.

Thank you.
 
My specific interpretation...

Please, if this is so simple, go and contest it. It's #493, you would be one of the 1st.

I went through that post, and the two it references. What exactly would you expect as a specific rebuttal to your points?

You aren't submitting any evidence for review. You are giving your interpretation of things. Others here are giving their interpretation of things.

Perhaps if you starting presenting your other totally compelling pieces of evidence that 911 was an inside job our little disagreement on the PNAC will fade into oblivion as we are forced to totally change our world views in the face of your incontrovertible evidence.

But, how can we do that if you can't get off what really is an 'agree to disagree position' on what in many people's opinion is irrelevant to 911?
 
My specific interpretation...

Please, if this is so simple, go and contest it. It's #493, you would be one of the 1st.

I agree 100% with your interpretation of the PNAC document, you are 100% correct.

Now, your next point is?













(Disclaimer, I don't, I am just saying this)
 
Well, thank you for addressing the points. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on my response.

I'm aware of your opinions, but I feel you're confusing them with verifiable facts. Yes, RAD referred to a catastrophic and catalysing event, but it's clear from the context that it referred to such an event that would highlight the need for modernisation of US forces; the swift military victories followed by the bloody and messy situation in Iraq make it clear that American military hegemony is in no danger, whereas its foreign policy is deeply flawed. The fact that events have been spun to try and justify some - and clearly and emphatically not all - of PNAC's aims (for example, what price troop realignments to south-eastern Europe and Asia now that Iraq is such a manpower sink?) is hardly proof, or even indication, of complicity.

Anyway, I understand what you're saying (although I have to say I did already before I got sucked in here). You're not going to get everyone agreeing with you, but you've stated your position, so how about moving on to the next step in your argument?

Dave
 
I'm aware of your opinions, but I feel you're confusing them with verifiable facts. Yes, RAD referred to a catastrophic and catalysing event, but it's clear from the context that it referred to such an event that would highlight the need for modernisation of US forces; the swift military victories followed by the bloody and messy situation in Iraq make it clear that American military hegemony is in no danger, whereas its foreign policy is deeply flawed. The fact that events have been spun to try and justify some - and clearly and emphatically not all - of PNAC's aims (for example, what price troop realignments to south-eastern Europe and Asia now that Iraq is such a manpower sink?) is hardly proof, or even indication, of complicity.

Anyway, I understand what you're saying (although I have to say I did already before I got sucked in here). You're not going to get everyone agreeing with you, but you've stated your position, so how about moving on to the next step in your argument?

Dave
The next step will come shortly.

The attack that was being referenced was an attack that would permit the changes envisaged in RAD to take place. Such has, to a massive extent, occurred. Hence 9/11 wasa propitious attack for PNAC. The facts that back this up are on the link I gave to you.

A pont about hegemony- military hegemony is clear for the US right now (not that I would state defeating Iraq andf Afghanistan is a measure of that), but the point of PNAC is to ensure it is invulnerable. Such will be hindered by a growing superpower, such as China, militarising space, and controlling cyberspace as a defense/offense tool. I incidentally have a friend who works for BAE, and he tells me that no one in the weapons industry cares for Islamic terrorism; it is chinese cyberterrorism tht has got everyone scared. Similar was stated by Dick Clarke.

Thank you for your response in any case; I would like to wait for others to respond to my posts as you have done before proceeding, if that is ok.
 
I went through that post, and the two it references. What exactly would you expect as a specific rebuttal to your points?

Someone saying, "No, i disagree with this because..." or, "No, youre wrong there because...". Thats ow debates work, no?

You aren't submitting any evidence for review. You are giving your interpretation of things. Others here are giving their interpretation of things.

I am giving my interpretation; I think its quite basic, but this is true. I am asking others to challenge my interpretation; again, this is how debates often proceed, no?

Perhaps if you starting presenting your other totally compelling pieces of evidence that 911 was an inside job our little disagreement on the PNAC will fade into oblivion as we are forced to totally change our world views in the face of your incontrovertible evidence.

Such evidence will be better established on the basis of the import of the PNAC doc being ascertained. Hence why I have asked people, you included, to challenge my interpretation of it.

But, how can we do that if you can't get off what really is an 'agree to disagree position' on what in many people's opinion is irrelevant to 911?

Why did you not answer the post? Please tell me.
 
I'm about a millisecond away from posting cat pictures.
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I could be wrong, but it seems that he is saying this.

MJD, no offense...really, your response to my post was that you have asked people to reply to your post 416 & 419 (my bad for saying reread)...These two posts are saying what you have been saying all along, are they not?

yes

To me, and I don't know much about military stuff (hence me saying "military stuff") and I had to read the PNAC doc (wow, was that...brutal), it is clear in all of the posts, even the ones not directly replying to #416 or #419, what the other people are trying to say that disagrees with what you are saying.

No. It disagrees with my overall argument- i..e taht PNAC stated that a new PH would be propitious to policy- but not with the points that are made to back that up.

There's a very simple way to do this- click "reply" on one of the posts, and then go through the post, point by point, and answer it. I have been on my hand and knees practically, begging people to do this. It is quite incredibly revealing taht despite this, hardly anyone will. They just sit there and say "Yes, we agree with u- move on"- this is evasion, by definition.

You are asking people to respond to #416 and/or #419. They haven't directly quoted and replied to #416 and/or #419, BUT...they HAVE addressed those issues throughout this thread. I, the feeble minded about this "military stuff", have even figured out what they are saying. They have provided enough information for me, the feeble mind, to understand. I have nothing to offer in this debate, because I don't know enough to add any additional information.

Again, note the difference between disagreeing with a point and addressing it. If you say "Jon is happy because he is smiling", I could disagree with it by saying "No he's not- he doesnt like Fridays"- this would not address the initial point. This is whats happening here.

However, I do know that this has been beat to death. The others just don't agree with you and have given reason. Having said that, why can't you just move on to the next part? Take a different approach, provide additional information to prove the point you are trying to make because this is going nowhere.

Thank you.

But it will go somewhere, even if not where i want, if someone addresses my points.
 
Someone saying, "No, i disagree with this because..." or, "No, youre wrong there because...". Thats ow debates work, no?


Yeah, but.... whenever we do this, what do you do?

Call them chimps, children, kids, say they can't read, suggest they go somewhere else, talk down to them, or you skip over that and just forget to reply.

Then there's alway my personal favrote, when you start talking to yourself.
 
Someone saying, "No, i disagree with this because..." or, "No, youre wrong there because...". Thats ow debates work, no?

Yes...tis true. However, this has happened repeatedly on this thread. Many participants have points, counterpoints and rebuttals. Most debates do not end with all parties agreeing on one point. You've made you case. Many others have made theirs. I think there has been enough information from both sides that firmly state each opposing view. It's now time to move on and let the readers decide for themselves on which side to agree with. That is how debates work...no?

I am giving my interpretation; I think its quite basic, but this is true. I am asking others to challenge my interpretation; again, this is how debates often proceed, no?

Read above.

Such evidence will be better established on the basis of the import of the PNAC doc being ascertained. Hence why I have asked people, you included, to challenge my interpretation of it.

It has been done. No new information is being presented. Let the reader decide now.

Why did you not answer the post? Please tell me.

Many, many people here have answered your posts. Those who did not reply to directly may feel as though someone else has made a statement that supports their own personal belief on this subject. You certainly don't expect everyone with an apposing view to state it if somebody has already stated it...correct.

It's a dead horse.
 

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