The 51st State of Hudson

[Ladewig]

So what would the flag look like with 51 states? Stay the same or make a new pattern with 51 stars?

Ranb

Combine North and South Dakota into one state and keep the number at 50. Or combine West Virginia and Virginia.

Personally, I would have drawn the dividing line just a little more to the north and then give the top half to Vermont - making sure to keep Montpelier as the capital.

 

[The Fool]

So what happens when the whole of the US consists of a handful of city-states and the rest of the nation is an impoverished wasteland?

what happens? They rename it Australia...

 

[Nova Land]

Combine North and South Dakota into one state and keep the number at 50. Or combine West Virginia and Virginia.

I can't speak on the wisdom of combining North and South Dakota. But as someone who grew up in West Virginia, I believe that West Virginia and Virginia are too culturally different, too geographically divided, and too large an area to be combined well into a single state.

A better solution might be to make DC a state at the same time that Hudson secedes, thus upping the number of states to 52. That way the number of states would match the number of cards in a deck, making the relation between US elections and gambling clearer.

As a bonus, 52 divides evenly by 13 -- the number of original colonies, and the number of stripes on the flag. This would lend itself neatly to a radical re-design of the flag in which there are 4 stars per stripe. (I can see Republicans, and especially Tea Party members, actively supporting such a change if it were marketed with the slogan: Don't box the states in!)

 

[Denver]

So what happens when the whole of the US consists of a handful of city-states and the rest of the nation is an impoverished wasteland?

I don't know, but I expect Kevin Costner will make a movie about it.

Or Neal Stephenson writes a book about it...

 

[Nova Land]

Combine North and South Dakota into one state and keep the number at 50. Or combine West Virginia and Virginia.

Another alternative -- possibly even more practical than my previous one -- would be to permit New York to divide into New York and Hudson but only if this is paired with the secession of two other states.

The minor benefit to this arrangement is that it reduces the number of states to 49, which would make a neat and symmetrical 7x7 pattern for the stars. The major potential benefit is financial.

There are secession movements active in several states -- and my understanding is that the states most eager to secede are in general the states which take more money from the federal government than they contribute. Since more than two states are interested in seceding, it might be possible to auction off secession rights to the two states willing to pay the most for the privilege. That would mean an immediate short-term reduction in the deficit when the winning bidders pay for their prize followed by a continuing long-term reduction.

Imagine, for instance, a bidding war among Mississippi, Alaska, Alabama, Louisiana, South Carolina and Kentucky. (I don't know if there's sufficient interest in secession yet in New Mexico, West Virginia, or the Dakotas, but if there isn't the Koch brothers might be able to finance a grass roots movement to get them into the auction.)

Some restrictions might need to be put on eligibility for the auction, to keep some states from taking part. Rick Perry in Texas, for instance, has been making secessionist noises; but Texas pays out more than it takes in. Similarly, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Connecticut and New Jersey should be discouraged from seceding. But those are details that can be worked out later.

 

[Brainster]

Don't tell Thunder that his proposal would result in two more Republican Senators.

 

[Ladewig]

I can't speak on the wisdom of combining North and South Dakota. But as someone who grew up in West Virginia, I believe that West Virginia and Virginia are too culturally different, too geographically divided, and too large an area to be combined well into a single state.

It seems to be working for California. As for size, if the two were combined they would be the 24th largest state so the size would not be unwieldy. I was thinking that West Virginia (being 47th in GDP per capita) could use an economic boost by joining Virginia.

 

[tyr_13]

Don't tell Thunder that his proposal would result in two more Republican Senators.

Seriously.

Politically, NYC basically dominates state politics. Then they scream about upstate taking all their money. It's basically the opposite problem of Arizona.

A lot of things in the state need fixing, and it's within NYC's political power to do so. It would mean actually taking an interest in what happens upstate besides how much tax money is going to it though, so it won't happen.

Don't think I'm letting off upstate easy though. Erie county alone is an example of absolute idiocy in governance. They can't even let a Bass Pro Shop open up right. The more rural parts have their own stupidity too, it's just a slightly different brand. People tend to blame on up, or blame on over, when they have enough they could be taking care of in their own back yards.

Overall I'd say one of the biggest problems for upstate is overlapping tax burdens and services. There are a lot of town and village police forces, councils, road departments, water services, and fire services that have no business existing different from those of the townships they are located in. Many need to start combining boards, and administrations, and even unincorporating. Then move on to providing better infrastructure, including high speed data lines, to serve the medical research industry for example. There is a lot that can be done to solve the local and state problems, and no truly huge political reasons why they can't be done.

 

[shadron]

yeah, perhaps parts of northeastern NJ.

Gosh, New Jersey really could become a garden state.

 

[joobie]

Basically, NYC, LI, Westchester, and Rockland fund the rest of the state..which is economically falling apart. NO new jobs have been created in New York State, other than in NYC.

the rich should contribute a bigger share, don't you think?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

I find it interesting that people in NYC believe they fund the rest of the State...and the rest of the State believes it funds NYC.

Given the bent of the NY Congress toward supporting NYC...I'm inclined to believe the latter before the former. Thunder, can you support your position that Upstate NY is funded by NYC?

 

[hgc]

I find it interesting that people in NYC believe they fund the rest of the State...and the rest of the State believes it funds NYC.

Given the bent of the NY Congress toward supporting NYC...I'm inclined to believe the latter before the former. Thunder, can you support your position that Upstate NY is funded by NYC?

What is "the NY Congress?" Can you cite for their "bent ... toward supporting NYC?"

 

[tyr_13]

I find it interesting that people in NYC believe they fund the rest of the State...and the rest of the State believes it funds NYC.

Given the bent of the NY Congress toward supporting NYC...I'm inclined to believe the latter before the former. Thunder, can you support your position that Upstate NY is funded by NYC?

The math is pretty clear that NYC does in fact contribute more to NYS than NYS contributes to NYC, although I don't have the link handy right now. Keep in mind, I'm a resident of Chautauqua county in western New York so I'd actually be biased the opposite direction.

EDIT: This says nothing about if it's worthwhile for NYS or NYC to support one or the other of course, which one would think would be THE important factor.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

I did find this report:
http://www.cgr.org/reports/04_R-1400_NYBalanceOfPayments.pdf

It's old, but the written part confirms the OP.


I'm a bit confused on the numbers, I must be reading the report wrong. Every line where it posts "surplus (deficit)", NYC/LI/Lower Hudson all seem to have deficits... This doesn't jive with the study findings and I'm not sure why I'm reading this wrong. Someone mind explaining this to me?

 

[kookbreaker]

This happens with a lot of cities. In Philadelphia we've had our share of budget problems and there was some noise in the 90's about making our own way without the rest of the state. But it never really went far and the it was more about progressive principles than anything else.

But the rest of the state loathes the fact that Philadelphia gets any money at all. When I was doing some work in the center of the state back in the late 90's it was near election time and local candidates were taking out 1/4 page ads ranting and raving about the big, bad, evil city (and adjacent counties) getting grants for certain projects - these were grants that were in the tens of thousands of dollars but you would think from the way these ads were written that the city was filled with nothing but 100% welfare recipients.

It doesn't help that most major cities have had budget crises which makes most of the rest of the state think that the city just can't help but spend more than it earns. But the fact is at the end of the day more money is put into the state than taken out and has a lot of weird restrictions put on it so it cannot get the money to fulfill state or federal mandates (Philly school bus system comes right to mind).

When I am feeling snippy I ask the upstaters why I am still paying the Johnstown Flood tax.

 

[Thunder]

Seriously.

Politically, NYC basically dominates state politics. Then they scream about upstate taking all their money. It's basically the opposite problem of Arizona.

Naa..more like NYC dominates the Assembly and Upstate dominates the Senate.

The Assembly is apportioned by population while the Senate is apportioned by County.

 

[tyr_13]

Naa..more like NYC dominates the Assembly and Upstate dominates the Senate.

The Assembly is apportioned by population while the Senate is apportioned by County.

That would be true if the upstate Senators voted as a block. They don't tend to. As conservative as upstate tends to be, there are large swaths of Democrat influence as well. This is true even of some of the MOST rural counties, Cattaraugus county comes to mind until the recent Tea Party 'scare the crap out of old people' victories. Although they still were the key to Eric Massa beating the incumbent Republican whose name escapes me.

On top of that, state Republicans around here tend to be less likely to stick together on EVERYTHING than their national level brethren.

I still maintain that a lot of New York's problems as a state are local problems compounding to create bigger headaches. That still doesn't mean that NYC splitting off is the best thing for it. For short term gain? Maybe. For the long hall? No. In fact, hell no. The parks and Great Lakes regions especially have a lot going from them in the long hall.

On the statewide level the biggest problem is still the state trying to screw over the Seneca through unconstitutional and illegal means. Funny that the Tea Party people are for this unconstitutional power grab.

 

[Thunder]

That would be true if the upstate Senators voted as a block. They don't tend to. As conservative as upstate tends to be, there are large swaths of Democrat influence as well. This is true even of some of the MOST rural counties, Cattaraugus county comes to mind until the recent Tea Party 'scare the crap out of old people' victories. Although they still were the key to Eric Massa beating the incumbent Republican whose name escapes me.

On top of that, state Republicans around here tend to be less likely to stick together on EVERYTHING than their national level brethren.

I still maintain that a lot of New York's problems as a state are local problems compounding to create bigger headaches. That still doesn't mean that NYC splitting off is the best thing for it. For short term gain? Maybe. For the long hall? No. In fact, hell no. The parks and Great Lakes regions especially have a lot going from them in the long hall.

On the statewide level the biggest problem is still the state trying to screw over the Seneca through unconstitutional and illegal means. Funny that the Tea Party people are for this unconstitutional power grab.

as a life-long resident of NYC, you have no idea how irrelevant all these problems and issues seem to our city. seriously, let us form a seperate state with Long Island, Westchester, Rockland, and we will be out of your hair in a jiffy.

 

[tyr_13]

as a life-long resident of NYC, you have no idea how irrelevant all these problems and issues seem to our city. seriously, let us form a seperate state with Long Island, Westchester, Rockland, and we will be out of your hair in a jiffy.

But they are relevant to 'your' city. And 'your' city isn't in 'our' hair, it's a vital part of our history and economy.

I can't imagine that the residents of NYC are so detached that they don't take pride in the fantastic wines, the sundry dairy products, the beautiful parks and lakes, and the wonderful maple sirup that get's bottled in a certain neighbor state so that they can say the best maple sirup in the country is 'made' there. The enchanted mountains and world renowned ski resorts are part of NY.

It isn't like the NYS government is forcing crazy as hell legislation through that is ideologically opposite of the feelings of NYC. The only issue you raise is an economic one, and a fairly recent one at that.

EDIT: Besides, we have some of the best kayaking around, so you have to keep us.

 

[joobie]

This happens with a lot of cities. In Philadelphia we've had our share of budget problems and there was some noise in the 90's about making our own way without the rest of the state. But it never really went far and the it was more about progressive principles than anything else.

there is even periodically some blather in northeast philadelphia about splitting away from the city proper. obviously it has gone just as far.