Merged Texas to arrest international election observers

[mikedenk]

Texas tells the UN to go pound sand: Link

 

[AlBell]

Now we need to morph that meme into "UN Goons there to arrest Republican voters" and we'll have the polls to ourselves!

I'm hoping for Black Panthers to beat UN Goons with tire-irons.

 

[RandFan]

Texas tells the UN to go pound sand: Link

Texas is in good company. So does North Korea and Iran. I think it is time for the UN to stop worrying about Democracy and abuse of power. Texas is a sovereign state and like North Korea and Iran they have every right to eschew transparency.

Good for you Texas.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Well here's the image they're trying to portray:

[qimg]http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q195/strido527/troops_zpscb72159b.jpg[/qimg]

OOH!! Scary! Body armor and all. Its such an outrage these are going to be at polling places in the USofA?!!? They'll have to pry my chads from my cold, dead hands, those bastards!!!!!

Yeah, so they're just lying. The only thing in that image that's remotely accurate, they put in scare quotes.

 

[theprestige]

Texas is in good company. So does North Korea and Iran. I think it is time for the UN to stop worrying about Democracy and abuse of power. Texas is a sovereign state and like North Korea and Iran they have every right to eschew transparency.

Good for you Texas.

Enh. The only reason the UN has observers in Texas is that it can get into Texas, not because Texas even remotely approaches Iran or North Korea either in a) magnitude of problem or b) lack of remedy.

If Texas were an isolationist tyranny without an empowered citizenry that had a voice in their own government and the freedom to speak and associate as they see fit, without organizations like the SPLC and the ACLU that are free to speak and act at will, I'd share your (sardonic, sarcastic, bad faith) concern.

Given the substantial differences between Texas, North Korea, and Iran, the UN's decision to spend limited resources on the former rather than the latter two is more than enough reason to tell them to go pound sand.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

The only reason the UN has observers in Texas is that it can get into Texas,
<snip>

the UN's decision to spend limited resources on the former rather than the latter two is more than enough reason to tell them to go pound sand.

The only reason the UN doesn't have observers in Iran and North Korea is because it can't (as you pretty much implied in your first sentence), not because of limited resources.

ETA: If those two countries permitted UN observers, we could and would easily come up with the resources.

 

[RandFan]

Enh. The only reason the UN has observers in Texas is that it can get into Texas, not because Texas even remotely approaches Iran or North Korea either in a) magnitude of problem or b) lack of remedy.

If Texas were an isolationist tyranny without an empowered citizenry that had a voice in their own government and the freedom to speak and associate as they see fit, without organizations like the SPLC and the ACLU that are free to speak and act at will, I'd share your (sardonic, sarcastic, bad faith) concern.

Given the substantial differences between Texas, North Korea, and Iran, the UN's decision to spend limited resources on the former rather than the latter two is more than enough reason to tell them to go pound sand.

Because abuse of power cannot happen in America? I'm sorry but none of what you said excuses such arrogance. An open and honest attitude would welcome any opportunity to demonstrate that people have reason for good faith in Texas. Despotic regimes don't want openness and transparency. I used an extreme to make a point. When you are threatening to arrest observers then that is a big read flag. When you are acting like a despot it's reasonable to wonder why. The UN has no history of interfering so there is simply no reason whatsoever for anyone to get their panties in a bunch over this. Unless they have something to hide of course.

 

[theprestige]

The only reason the UN doesn't have observers in Iran and North Korea is because it can't (as you pretty much implied in your first sentence), not because of limited resources.

ETA: If those two countries permitted UN observers, we could and would easily come up with the resources.

Yeah, my post got a little jumbled up.

Long story short, if RandFan wants to believe that Texan disdain for the UN signifies a moral equivalence with Iran and North Korea, I'm okay with that.

Likewise if RandFan wants to believe that the UN's decision to observe Texas signifies any sort of moral righteousness or practical utility on the part of the UN.

 

[RandFan]

Yeah, my post got a little jumbled up.

Long story short, if RandFan wants to believe that Texan disdain for the UN signifies a moral equivalence with Iran and North Korea, I'm okay with that.

• The ACLU, documenting abuses, asked for help from the UN.
• I never claimed that Texas was morally equivalent to Iran and North Korea.
• I believe that there is simply no reason whatsoever to not seek transparency.
• I believe that when people in power start acting like despots then we have a reason to worry.

Likewise if RandFan wants to believe that the UN's decision to observe Texas signifies any sort of moral righteousness or practical utility on the part of the UN.

Could you do me a favor? Stop with the straw men? America isn't immune from abuse and you really ought to know that.

If the broad light of day could be let in upon men’s actions, it would purify them as the sun disinfects. --Brandeis

IMO: Arrogance on the part of American leaders is poor form and bad faith in and of itself.

 

[theprestige]

• The ACLU, documenting abuses, asked for help from the UN.
• I never claimed that Texas was morally equivalent to Iran and North Korea.
• I believe that there is simply no reason whatsoever to not seek transparency.
• I believe that when people in power start acting like despots then we have a reason to worry.

Noble sentiments, but here's what you actually said:

Texas is in good company. So does North Korea and Iran. I think it is time for the UN to stop worrying about Democracy and abuse of power. Texas is a sovereign state and like North Korea and Iran they have every right to eschew transparency.

Not much interest there, in a sincere analysis of the ACLU's concerns, or the value UN observers bring to the table.

Could you do me a favor? Stop with the straw men? America isn't immune from abuse and you really ought to know that.

If the broad light of day could be let in upon men’s actions, it would purify them as the sun disinfects. --Brandeis

IMO: Arrogance on the part of American leaders is poor form and bad faith in and of itself.

Noble sentiments, but again, here's what you actually said:

Texas is in good company. So does North Korea and Iran. I think it is time for the UN to stop worrying about Democracy and abuse of power. Texas is a sovereign state and like North Korea and Iran they have every right to eschew transparency.

I don't think it's at all a straw man to say you're drawing a moral equivalency here. I don't think you made this argument sincerely, but it is the argument you made, and I don't see any problem with calling it for what it is.

If you want to make another--preferably sincere--analysis or argument, I certainly have no problem not calling you out on this one.

 

[RandFan]

Noble sentiments, but here's what you actually said:

Texas is in good company. So does North Korea and Iran. I think it is time for the UN to stop worrying about Democracy and abuse of power. Texas is a sovereign state and like North Korea and Iran they have every right to eschew transparency.

Yep, damn straight and I stand by that statement 100% I hope that is clear. Thanks. Just because Texas acts like a despot and just because I point that fact out doesn't mean that I claim that Texas is exactly the same as Iran and North Korea. You are arguing by assertion. If I say that A has something in common with B it does not mean that I claim A = B.

 

[RandFan]

Bears repeating one more time.

Texas is in good company. So does North Korea and Iran. I think it is time for the UN to stop worrying about Democracy and abuse of power. Texas is a sovereign state and like North Korea and Iran they have every right to eschew transparency.

Way to go Texas.

 

[stokes234]

Actually sounds like a pretty good idea to let UN observers into the solid democracies to set a good example of transparency. I can see why other countries would object to it if they were being told they had to have observers when countries like america or britain or france or wherever have decided to exempt themselves.

 

[theprestige]

Yep, damn straight and I stand by that statement 100% I hope that is clear. Thanks. Just because Texas acts like a despot and just because I point that fact out doesn't mean that I claim that Texas is exactly the same as Iran and North Korea. You are arguing by assertion. If I say that A has something in common with B it does not mean that I claim A = B.

Help me understand: When you say "Texas acts like a despot", do you or do you not mean that the actions of Texas are morally equivalent to the actions of the despot?

I mean, you could have looked at what Texas is actually doing, and made a rational argument, complete with evidence, for why it was a good thing or a bad thing.

But the argument you actually made was that Texas is doing the same thing North Korea is doing. And you did it without even looking at what Texas is actually doing. But go ahead: Look now, see what Texas is actually doing, and explain how it's morally equivalent to what North Korea is actually doing. Or isn't morally equivalent, if that's the line you're going with now.

 

[theprestige]

Actually sounds like a pretty good idea to let UN observers into the solid democracies to set a good example of transparency. I can see why other countries would object to it if they were being told they had to have observers when countries like america or britain or france or wherever have decided to exempt themselves.

Again, are there any countries out there that arguably need external supervision, whose regimes would be swayed by such an argument?

 

[RandFan]

Help me understand: When you say "Texas acts like a despot", do you or do you not mean that the actions of Texas are morally equivalent to the actions of the despot?

Some of the actions. Texas acts like a despot != Texas is despotic.

But the argument you actually made was that Texas is doing the same thing North Korea is doing.

One thing. Just one thing. Not all things. Not every thing. Not the exact same thing in ever single way.

I'm guessing this going to go on for pages, right? You will assert over and over what it is I meant and I will assert over and over that you are clearly and obviously wrong.

 

[lomiller]

Actually sounds like a pretty good idea to let UN observers into the solid democracies to set a good example of transparency. I can see why other countries would object to it if they were being told they had to have observers when countries like america or britain or france or wherever have decided to exempt themselves.

Yup, plus transparency helps prevent problems in the future. Contrary to what some people seem to think the first step in overturning a democracy is not to take away peoples guns it’s to take away transparency in election and put the local government firmly in control.

 

[stokes234]

Again, are there any countries out there that arguably need external supervision, whose regimes would be swayed by such an argument?

Probably not in the sense of the entire power block in a country being 100% opposed to it one day, then changing their mind to 100% in favour the next day when they learn that america is allowing it. But it may well be a contributing factor that sways some people in government, and there's probably over 100 countries in the world that call themselves democracies but could certainly use supervision in order to verify this. With those countries having elections every 4 years, over a long enough period it may well be the deciding factor on several occasions.

It also just strikes me that it puts the UN in a stronger position to request entry to these countries. If the UN says "if you want a say in UN decisions, or you want aid (or whatever) you best allow us to monitor your elections" then it helps if that other country can't just turn around and say "well, you don't demand that of america, and everyone knows those infidels/capitalist pigdogs/imperial swine are rigging their elections!"

 

[RandFan]

Again, are there any countries out there that arguably need external supervision, whose regimes would be swayed by such an argument?

• America has a history of disenfranchising voters (see below).
• Power corrupts and American leaders are not immune
• The ACLU has documented abuses

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act
http://www.aclu.org/voting-rights/voter-disfranchisement

Acting like a despot is a very bad sign.

 

[RandFan]

Yup, plus transparency helps prevent problems in the future. Contrary to what some people seem to think the first step in overturning a democracy is not to take away peoples guns it’s to take away transparency in election and put the local government firmly in control.

If we have faith in our institutions, then why not have transparency?

If the broad light of day could be let in upon men’s actions, it would purify them as the sun disinfects. --Brandeis